Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin

This does seem plausible, so I almost don't think this is worth mentioning, but don't forget about "parallel construction".

Having the world believe they can't reverse Tor would clearly be more valuable than having the world believe they can. Remember that Tor explicitly doesn't protect against a global passive adversary.



1984 wasn't supposed to be a manual god damn it! (This is how the main character was caught. He believed in a 'alternative' system. Much like how we like to pretend TOR is untouchable)


this has nothing to do with 1984 -- DPR was very sloppy, this is an indication that TOR works.

I'm betting a dozen entrepreneurs are looking at this right now thinking "I can do this better" and are designing their systems as this is happening.


That's what they want you to think, so they can snare you in their FBI ran honeypot...

All joking aside, I hope you're right, and that the next few SR alternative sites figure out how to get it right, and that Tor itself isn't fundamentally broken by the FBI.


Agreed - I'd like to think both this, and the Lavabit being coerced to hand over private SSL keys news elsewhere today - indicates that TOR and SSL are still "as secure as needed" against even targeted FBI attacks.

Unfortunately that all now needs to be viewed with the suspicion of "parallel reconstruction" - I'm somewhat less convinced that if the NSA targeted someone specific that SSL and TOR would resist their efforts (and that for something like Silk Road, that the NSA wouldn't happily break and read everything DPR did over his SSL secured TOR connections, and "share" just the right tidbits with the FBI for them to go and create a plausible explanation involving google searches and old forum posts).

Welcome to the post Snowden era - where we know that our governments not only don't have our best interests in mind, but have sophisticated programs in place to lie to us about how they arrive at the evidence they present (in those annoying occasions where they have to use courts who aren't just rubber-stamping everything they're told too).

(Edit: on reflection, it's kinda sad that this might well have been good detective work by diligent, talented, and persistent FBI investigators doing exactly what he taxpayer employs them to do - but that effort is now permanently under the dark cloud of suspicion of unconstitutional dragnet surveillance and morally corrupt processes like "parallel reconstruction".)


The question is - what was the service provided by Silk Road at the end of the day, and what can be decentralized?

The trust and review system, the search engine and the communication platform can all run independently and don't need to happen on the same platform.

The web interface can be provided by an open-source turn-key package, so the next DPRs only need to figure out the hosting.


The escrow system was probably the most critical service that SR provided. Unfortunately that seems to require a centralized model.


exactly what i was thinking, the amount of work involved despite some pretty horrendous slip-ups, implies TOR + basic common sense can be a pretty powerful thing


In principle I agree with what you're saying, but I think it's harder than you realize to maintain basic common sense all the time. People do irrational things, all the time. Even the normal ones.


Also anyone talking about it here on HackerNews is already failing at it.


Meh. The FBI and DEA can investigate my Silk Road seller account all they want and they won't find anything interesting.



> Much like how we like to pretend TOR is untouchable

Who are you talking about? Everywhere I look people are saying tor is certainly broken, the NSA is watching us, etc.


We don't know that any "parallel construction" is at work here. It seems like most of the information stemmed from the discovery of the Silk Road web server, and I haven't seen how they were able to determine that. If this goes to trial, then the FBI will have to say how it got that information (assuming he has a competent defense team).


That's the thing though. We know that as of very recently the NSA is helping other alphabet agencies construct cases in parallel. If you knew the guy's name or handle or whatever information the NSA could have given the FBI then coming up with an alternate story of how they ID'd the guy (page 24 onwards in the criminal complaint) would be incredibly easy. The point is that we'll probably never know either way.


The point of parallel construction is that we don't know that it's at work.


True, and the next Silk Road owner will certainly take that point into account.

Obviously, the disappearance of such a site leaves a gaping hole on the Web:

Silk Road has proven that the demand/market is there, that people are willing to use the Web to acquire those goods, that they are willing to pay, that the whole transaction works and that this leads to a massive amount of cash.

So, make no mistake, the next Silk Road creator is certainly out there, probably technically more astute and careful, and already building.


The next Silk Road owner will call himself the "CEO" of his operation and won't do an interview with Forbes, but an AMA on Reddit. Strange times.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1fwi48/im_the_ceo_of_a...


> Q: How do you rate yourself compared to the road?

> A: The road has more users, but our service is better (to put it bluntly).

> [...] We have automated PGP encryption of messages for the members who refuse to send their messages using PGP.

Ouch.


Atlantis is pretty widely known to be either a honeypot or a scam.

Black Market Reloaded is the odds-on favorite to be the new Silk Road.

Drugs are bad, mm'kay?


...the next Silk Road creator is certainly out there, probably technically more astute and careful...

And almost as certainly: more experienced in the use of serious violence. The next guy won't be hiring hitters without introductions from fellow violent criminals. (Not that undercover cops have never been vouched for in such a manner, but it raises the stakes significantly.) Yay Drug War!


If they used parallel construction, then why didn't they list how they got the information about the location/IP of the Silk Road webserver? I would assume that they would have ParallelConstruction'd a reasonable way for them to have obtained that information, no?


Why would they show their hand before they need to, and give more opportunities for poking holes in it?


Because they are legally obligated to 'show their hand' when the defendant's legal representative asks for it?


You appear to be missing the point of parallel construction. The point is that they show a true, but-not-the-whole-truth "hand" (the parallel construction) while obscuring the full truth. That is, you spy on someone, and obtain a bunch of evidence, either illegally or that is fruit of the poisonous tree. From that knowledge, you construct a (fictitious or only partially fictitious, but plausible) story about how you gathered enough evidence to incriminate your victim, without revealing that you came across this evidence illegally. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction.

Yes, they are legally obligated to not lie about the true means of how they came to have the evidence. But if nobody can prove you're lying, they can't call you on it.


Gee, parallel construction sounds an awful lot like money laundering except with my bytes. :|


Few cases make it to trial, especially in the federal system. He's been charged with at least two capital eligible charges. They'll offer to plead down to life in prision (or 100+ years same difference) and he'll take it. We'll never see the government's full case.


It's already known that they have attacks against Tor (i.e. Flying Pig)




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: