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New York will plant trees using new tech to maximize foliage impact (theguardian.com)
165 points by PaulHoule on Dec 2, 2023 | hide | past | favorite | 78 comments


This is really smart imo. Portland uses tree cover near the roads to keep them cooler. This year the city put data to that idea and identified "heat islands" that occurred due to a large drop off in tree coverage. Similar study below:

https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2017-06/documents/ur...


There's also the fact that trees are a long-term way to create welcoming public spaces. Nobody wants to sit next to a busy road huffing exhaust fumes, but put a couple trees there and a bench? Suddenly it's a nice meet-up spot. In fact, putting extra trees onto existing plazas would be a huge positive.


After moving from California to Portland, a PNW summer is much more enjoyable because of the trees. Ambient temps could be around 90°F and walking outside is still pleasant because the streets are covered with huge trees.


I live in Georgia and the summer is not a bother at all in my neighborhood because it's so forested. I can take a causal walk outside up until about 90F. Florida was hell even at the same temperatures because palm trees just aren't the same as oaks or pines.


> Florida was hell even at the same temperatures

Humidity may have played a part.


Georgia is not a dry place…unless op mean Georgia in the Middle East.


Tiny correction: I think Georgia, the country, is not considered as part of the Middle East. If anything, it’s more in Europe than the middle east.


geographically it's in Asia,come on people


apologies, it's on both continents (but like 95% Asia)


Really depends on the part of the city you’re in. Take the green line out to Lents and walk back to the city center and you will develop an even greater appreciation for the difference trees make.


Good to have studies, but shouldn't even need them as the effect is pretty clear and undebatable when just experienced. It is not only coverage but evaporation from trees, too, besides the nice view and psychological effect of bringing a bit if nature into dead towns. Agreed, very smart, never understood why not more cities do that when feasible besides the long existing examples, especially as we have those heat waves and future prediction for quite a while..


So instead of studies they should just, what, have someone walk the entire city to identify these spots?


That’s not remotely as crazy as you make it sound. This sort of census is used to count all sorts of things. In the case of NYC street trees, it’s been done three times before: https://www.nycgovparks.org/trees/treescount


The tree census is not “someone walking around identifying trees”, it is a study. It takes a ton of organization, methodology, data collection and management. It’s an excellent example of why you need an actual study even to collect obvious data like “that’s a tree!”


but committee members will ask questions about the effects of their budget.


In France, they started planting trees along the road during Napoleon era, so the soldiers could walk at the shadow of the trees. Definitly smart, but also very old idea ahah

That said, with the car development, they cut most of the trees because well...a car hitting a tree is not good.


On the opposite end. We in Germany keep them because the prospect of your car getting wrapped around the tree is a good reason drivers use to go slower. Flipside is I can read about drunk teens dying to them every couple of weeks :/


The trees also protect pedestrians though.


Portland is great about this already and there is glaring room for improvement.

I still don’t get why we didn’t do more to support Friends Of Trees.


Something similar was done in New York as well for those curious: https://council.nyc.gov/data/heat/


I know everyone is gonna talk about how we need to give the poor more money, but I honestly truly believe there's no better way the city can spend money than planting and maintaining trees.

It employs people, and it's really not that expensive, and the impact is demonstrably enormous.


The New Deal programs ring a bell here: “give money to poor people … by employing them to plant trees in their neighborhoods!”


> everyone is gonna talk about how we need to give the poor more money

Tangent but David Harvey says "wealth redistribution is the lowest form of socialism". A better way is to do a few things differently so those people are better empowered to make more money for themselves. This can be achieved by promoting worker control and ownership in the economy, so that when the economy does well so do regular people. There is no need for heavy handed manipulation to achieve this - we currently have plenty of laws subsidizing and promoting non worker-owned businesses. A little support for learning about, starting, and maintaining worker owned businesses would go a long way to ensuring that regular people don't end up poor in the first place.

And then when we think of where to spend our tax dollars we can all agree that spending on planting trees is a great use of funds.


Interesting, this applies to people in employment. When I read the word poor, I was thinking of people experiencing homelessness who usually are unemployed. But there are lots of working poor too.


Indeed there are lots of working poor in the USA. And if people had more of a stake in the economy when they are employed, they’d have more income to deal with changes in employment rather than ending up homeless.


> Tangent but David Harvey says "wealth redistribution is the lowest form of socialism". A better way is to do a few things differently so those people are better empowered to make more money for themselves.

This is a pretty interesting take.

From a Capitalist perspective, people know what they want - and the market is "efficient" when you let people do what they want. There's nothing more efficient than giving people money.

From a Socialist perspective - I guess this is obviously wrong? If an economy free of government interventions worked, you wouldn't need Socialism in the first place? So it's better to let the government make investments on your behalf?


Let's not conflate the free market, capitalism, and 'capitalist-ism'.

I'm not sure I follow your terminology.

Unregulated markets are not, in theory or practice, efficient and do not work out to be free markets; they are controlled by the few for their purposes. Government can regulate markets to provide free markets, reducing barriers to entry and requiring competition; they also can provide safety and public good by preventing harm to the public by fraud or injury. Another way to think of it is that power (over the market) is conserved; the question is, who has it, a few participants acting in their interests or the people acting in theirs? A well-regulated market is better and freer for almost all participants than an unregulated one.

Regulation is not socialism; socialism is the collective or government ownership of economic assets. For example, the US government regulates GM, Ford, etc., but does not own them.

Capitalism is ownership of economic assets by private entities, called capitalists.


From an economic perspective: The market is not fully efficient, and it's a horrible assumption to pretend that it is (akin to asserting P = NP). Business/capitalist thought deliberately embraces this when setting out to find/create market inefficiencies (eg "build a moat"), but then feigns the opposite when criticized. At best we can say it's efficient to some epsilon, but this epsilon is nowhere near negligible at human(e) scales.

Legal rights/entitlements are essentially a form of non-fungible wealth that resists the common pattern - being turned into an "asset class", centralized, and packaged up into recurring rent streams collected from wider society. It remains an open question whether the overall trend would be so strongly towards centralization without the continual government handouts powering the financial industry (witness all the whinging about interest rates existing again). But unless that dynamic is actually reformed then non-fungible guarantees seem like a necessary backstop for maintaining distributed power throughout society.


> Business/capitalist thought deliberately embraces this when setting out to find/create market inefficiencies (eg "build a moat"), but then feigns the opposite when criticized.

Agreed, to recycle a comment [0] in the same vein:

> On Monday, capital-C-Capitalism is celebrated as being the most efficient and economist-approved system (i.e. the bestest) when--if--there is somehow perfect price/deal information available to all actors.

> On Tuesday, no-True-Capitalism is lauded as immune to cartels and collusion, because any actor will quickly undercut the others with secret prices and deals and hidden identities and wash-trading.

> On Wednesday, Virtuous Capitalism needs no oversight because nasty behavior will be seen and detected by consumers who will vote with their wallets.

> On Thursday, Property-Respecting Capitalism refuses to infringe on the owners' essential freedom... to construct impenetrable webs of shifting corporate ownership to obfuscate all controlling relationships.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38368257


I think the point was that a socialist system could provide more services, perhaps to the point where cash transfers wouldn't be necessary


Unfortunately anything the city does to make an area more desirable is inevitably followed by increased rents.


Rents only go up if more people want to live somewhere or can afford more to live there - or, maybe short-term, if the government levies more taxes.

If you make everywhere nice, then you don't need to pay a premium to live somewhere nice.

Maybe you have to pay a miniscule amount more in property taxes.

You could just stop running trash & sewer service and let the city turn to garbage if you want lower rents. I don't think that's what people want. They want somewhere nice to live.

You can't have your cake and eat it, too.


I will add that I'm being naive here thinking that EVERYWHERE in the US would do anything, let alone invest in trees, of all things...

On a city level, if - say - Chicagoland invested in all of its neighborhoods being beautiful instead of mainly just the wealthy areas near the lake - then you might have more people than expected migrate to the area and drive up rents everywhere, slightly.

But I'm skeptical...

As much as people like a nice neighborhood, you pick where you live (your metro) mostly based on jobs and your life - not trees.

You pick your individual neighborhood that metro based on a ton of factors. Trees could definitely influence that.

If trees are everywhere in that matro, then it's a non-factor.


Chicago's non-lakefront neighborhoods are famously beautiful? Even the boarded up neighborhoods are tree canopy streets and Queen Annes? And who lives on the Lakefront? The most expensive houses in Chicago are generally not close to the lake.


If migration is the only reason rents increase, why have they been increasing everywhere?


In Bay Area, if you can see a tree from the window the rent is more. If it’s a scenic view, the rent is a lot more. Rent is gamification donee right, mandatory in-app purchases.


Again, though, what's the sustainable response? It's not cash transfers, it's community owned housing, land trusts, and the like.


LVT.

There’s a reason the law that GP states, that all public investment is eventually baked into rents, is called the Henry George Theorem.

There’s no way around this, but with LVT at least society captures the returns on its investments instead of private landowners, which can then be reinvested e.g. in nicer public housing or public transit that allows a larger geographic area to participate in city life.


Don’t land trusts just lock people out of their home equity? Since we’ve rigged the housing market to be up-only and the main source of household wealth, it’s probably best for New Yorkers to build lots and lots of normal homes that people can buy and not mess around with failed models from the Jim Crow era that locked black people out of wealth.


How have we “rigged the housing market to be up-only” ?


By ensuring demand keeps going up (population grows) while supply doesn’t (building restrictions, restrictive zoning, NIMBYism). Econ 101.


Lets just destroy all public infrastructure. Then rents will be so low.


The article mentions that rows of trees is “the old” way of planting trees and this new technology will enable … what exactly?

Obviously they won’t plant in the middle of the road, and I get the benefit of identifying areas that needs trees, but what exactly is different in the way they are placed along the road?


> new technology will enable … what exactly?

Covered in the article

> Our model is able to measure canopy coverage using newer lidar data than existing canopy coverage maps and measure the size and volume of individual canopies, making it easier to see where healthy trees are located and where existing canopies are lacking


I wish these sorts of studies quantified how much more useful they are than the last model. There's a lot of papers out there where they reproduce some finding from an older method or dataset, but use the new hot method or dataset. Very few of them go ahead and do power comparisons between old and new, to see if it was even worth all the trouble and by how much.


I found this: https://labs.aap.cornell.edu/daslab/projects/treefolio

The videos were ok

> Tree Folio uses bespoke tools to identify tree canopies from raw LiDAR data. We've built a filtering program to isolate tree canopy points from the rest of the LiDAR data, a clustering algorithm to extract 3D models of each individual tree from the canopy, and a custom shading simulation platform that models shading interactions between the specific tree and the surrounding buildings


I went through their website, but it didn't really answer my question of if this was really better than some old fashioned way, e.g. taking satellite imagery and measuring density of canopy and using some simple formula to estimate shade effect based on tree or orientation of the street perhaps. 3D modelling, constantly updating LIDAR maps, custom shading simulation, it all seems like a lot of resource heavy technology. I'm not sure whether or not its being applied in a way that actually offers a statistically significant benefit over other, maybe less expensive methods.


They mentioned “leaf-level” visualization, meaning they have now 3D data to work with instead of a pixel on a map. Practically this means they can simulate time of day coverage, and can plan for tree species for different foliage heights.


>Obviously they won’t plant in the middle of the road

It’s the USA so you’re probably right, but in other places roads have been depaved and/or pedestrianized, and trees could then be planted.


It looks cooler and generates more meetings, presentations, fluff, costs to involve tech/simulation/AI/etc rather than to just boringly plant trees.

Now they've got a TED invitation in it.


look like they have new tool to estimate coverage of tree, and then residents can require government keep the region they want have same coverage.


look like they have new tool to estimate coverage of tree, and then residents can require government keep the region they want have same coverage.


The lack of greenery is the worst aspect of New York for me.


It's extremely dependent on the neighborhood.

Obviously midtown doesn't have a lot of trees.

But there are also residential neighborhoods with streets where the trees from both sides of the street meet above and form a canopy.

Not to mention the backyard areas of blocks of brownstones that can be full of trees and gardens and greenery.

And then if you're lucky enough to live near something like Prospect Park, well you've basically got the biggest backyard anybody could ever ask for.


As others have said: it depends heavily on the neighborhood. I grew up in a neighborhood with decent (but not great) tree coverage; my current neighborhood has full canopies on many blocks.

(This is one of the things I found most surprising about otherwise far more livable European cities: East Coast US cities tend to be far greener in a “diffuse” sense, if not in terms of total park area.)


It's what I find stark between London and other continental captials too. You get seduced as there's often a trophy park, but after a while you realise that's pretty much it for miles, apart from the occasional square - looking at you in particular, Paris and Madrid.


It’s really makes Central Park that much more special. It just feels like a true sanctuary when you step into it.


Check out Fort Tryon as well; it's huge, and there are many parts where you can go and feel like you're not in a city at all.


What most municipalities seem to fail to account for with urban canopy initiatives is the increased maintenance costs associated with root growth under pavement/sidewalks and increased private property burdens when trees die or are blown over in increasingly more severe wind storms. My city had multiple "derechos" a few years ago, and there's still plenty of yards with hazardous branches over structures and piles of decaying wood with no one that can afford to haul them away. Anecdotally I've heard that this is grounds for home insurance companies to deny renewed coverage.


Definitely worth pointing out not all trees are suitable for urban greening.

I can't remember what they're called, but in Australia we plant some deciduous tree that has deep but narrow root base which makes them minimally destructive to footpaths etc, as well as, being quite resistant to wind (especially in winter when they don't have leaves!)


NYC uses ginkgos for this purpose. They still make up a fairly small portion of the trees in the city, though. They're also particularly hardy when it comes to handling pollution, which is obviously valuable in cities.

I believe this style of root system is called a taproot.


From TFA:

> “It’s about not just planting more trees, but the right tree in the right spot,” said Alexander Kobald, a researcher at Cornell University. “It’s really focusing on what the spot calls for and making sure the people [who live near the trees] feel heard.”


What is this “researcher” saying though? There’s nothing specific. It’s just some vague thing with a dash of social justice signaling thrown in.

Who decides what a spot calls for? How do we communicate with it. What is “right” and how do we ensure the right tree was put in spots that have been classified as “right”?

Is this a serious person?


In my city they measure the space between the sidewalk and roadway and recommend specific tree species to fit, depending on overhead wires and any underground utilities present. They also look at soil type and diversity of nearby trees.


NYC is also interesting in that landowners are responsible for maintaining the sidewalks in front of their property instead of the city.

Depending on your point of view, that's actually a solution to the problem you pose: the costs of maintaining damage from this plan are spread across private owners.

It does mean that owners will grumble in fall months when they have to clear leaves from their sidewalks, and will complain in the rare occasions when their sidewalks crack, meanwhile their home value ticks upward silently.


Creating perverse incentives where real estate owners are responsible for the damages caused by trees that the city insists on planting (and real estate owners are likely prohibited from maintaining) is not what I'd call a "solution". Asset values going up doesn't do anything about those perverse incentives. And in fact rising asset values is actually a liability for long-term owner occupiers, ultimately just facilitating more financialization and centralization of wealth by professional investors.

I'm all for more trees. I'm just against this dynamic where such improvements are partially funded at the outset only, leaving the fallout as externalities that everyone has to suffer. If the city wants to plant trees that will eventually destroy the sidewalk, then the city should take on the responsibility for maintaining the sidewalks.


If they are planting trees so that the roots destroy the sidewalk they are planting the wrong trees.


> NYC is also interesting in that landowners are responsible for maintaining the sidewalks in front of their property instead of the city.

Is that really unique? Everywhere I've lived the resident is required to clear leaves and snow.


I’ve never heard of such a thing. Where I am sidewalks are municipally owned and maintained.


I thought clearing ice from sidewalks was always the responsibility of the land owner. The sidewalks are on easements but it's still owned by whoever owns the rest of the property. This is why sidewalk clearage is always inconsistent; some property owners are very diligent while others are negligent. And this is also why there are so many horror stories about property owners getting sued when somebody slips and breaks their hip; it was their responsibility to keep the sidewalk passable so if they don't they become liable for resulting accidents.


It definitely doesn’t work like that in Quebec.


Considering historical disparities in tree planting and landscaping promulgated by Robert Moses and subsequent officials, this is a great step in the right direction. Community boards have already been pushing for this kind of environmental justice


I've also genuinely wondered if using white trash bags would have a measurable impact. Hopefully that's all going away with their "large bins" and make room for foliage


How do you solve the canopy challenge while not introducing challenges presented by tree roots? Is this a problem for the city 15+ years from now, so don't worry about it?


There are cities in Europe that have 100 year old tries in them. Roots are an issue, but a far smaller one then the benefit of trees.

You of course need to pick trees that fit the application and climat.


dig bigger holes


I feel a little surprised there are no mention of allergies in that article, e.g. that hopefully they’re planting female trees which remove pollen rather than male trees which produce more


People terrified by nature is the bigger problem.

Contamination trigger allergies. Plants remove part of that contamination and improve health for everybody. They reduce skin cancer rate for example.

Landscapers know their job and plan according it. (At least some of them; Cheap workers can be terrible gardeners. People get what they pay for).




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