Thanks for this. I’m going to be more aware of these kind of things and more watchful to make sure I don’t contribute to this myself and more observant of those around me.
Now, I have a question for the women here — sometimes I’ll hear a woman make the joke about belonging in the kitchen. Do you have insight into why that might happen sometimes and what the best sort of response would be?
Some women are secure enough that it bounces off when stupid people act stupid. Some are making meta-jokes about sexism and how backward comments like that are. Some are comfortable with the prototypical 50s-style gender roles that you abhor.
To know "what the best sort of the response would be," you'd have to know a lot about the person you're talking to and how they'll respond to your unsolicited advice, and no one on HN is going to be able to grant you that.
But then, I'm not too sympathetic to what strikes me as an arrogant desire to transform the primitive worldview of a thinking adult with your wet blanket nostrums. By all means intervene if someone's being demeaning to another person, but in the case of a woman making a kitchen joke, I doubt you're dealing with a neanderthal waiting to be shaken into the 21st century by sobering thoughts about how retrograde it is to even joke about such things.
Emotional fragility has got to be at an all-time high these days.
Heh. I have a blog post about that as well! Basically, some women do really believe in 'traditional' roles for women. Maybe they've benefited from the current situation. Maybe it's part of their upbringing. If that's why they're making the comment, feel free to call them out on it.
If they're doing it to be ironic (I know I have), then you can probably shrug it off. Many of us have learned to be subversively snarky to put off the ones above.
I like to non-verbally snark, by breaking people's brains.
I wear long skirts all the time, and sometimes I cover my hair. So I must be traditionalist/conservative, right? No, I just don't like how jeans are all about objectifying my butt and also never fit right. Some of my coverings keep my hair nicely off the back of my neck in the summer, others let me have pretty flowy fabric (I like textiles). I'm pretty clearly not a booth babe with that skirt though, so maybe I'm a girlfriend? Oh wait, the shirt I'm wearing is from an Ubuntu Developer Summit. Hmm... Wait, but I'm knitting, back to the girlfriend idea, maybe? Oh nevermind, this is too confusing, how about talking instead of trying to guess?
I have noticed, btw, that a large portion of female developers knit or crochet. Maybe it's because knitting & crochet patterns look a lot like code, complete with for-loops and while-loops. Also, ya know, make a scarf, make a website, make a pie...make stuff!
a lot of female sf fandom is into knitting, crochet and the like too. i wouldn't even blink if i saw you at an sf con, and by extension i probably wouldn't be surprised at a dev event either (rightly or wrongly i tend to assume a fair amount of overlap among the two groups)
I'm not a woman, but my response in the past has always been: "Jeez, I wouldn't even joke about that."
You can be friendly and still express disapproval.
Context does matter, women do have more latitude in making that kind of joke, but it still isn't something I like having reinforced (lots of people suck at context).
Why would they do it on-purpose/non-ironically/non-sarcastically?
I've also known women to do it thinking that it will help them fit in. To be one of the guys. It really sucks to be excluded.
Women can also behave badly just like men do. If you work in a sexist environment, you can pick up those attitudes and become tone-deaf. Maybe they don't realize how much it can hurt other women to reinforce that sort of idea.
Now, I have a question for the women here — sometimes I’ll hear a woman make the joke about belonging in the kitchen. Do you have insight into why that might happen sometimes and what the best sort of response would be?