Sounds like a false dichotomy. Why is the only other option still an imposed cost on the customer? Wouldn't it be nice if the bad servers just got fired like any other profession and the good servers got a bonus or something from the business owner?

Maybe people shouldn't "aspire" to be cafe baristas and chain restaurant wait staff. There are plenty of students and elderly that could handle the job and also handle the minimum wage. There's no reason those jobs should be lucrative, unless the business owners (rightly) realize those staff are the face of their operations, but in that case, again, the business owner should "invest" in their higher salaries to hopefully bring in business. None of this should be imposed on customers. Just my opinion.

By trying to eliminate tipping, you are working against the interest of waiters since they naturally want to maximize their income. You may not like tipping but it is economically optimal in many contexts. Businesses need to compete for employees and tipping maximizes employee income relative to revenue.

Where I live, most of the bartenders and waiters I know personally earn on the order of $80k/year if they do it full-time, and not at high-end establishments. Not an ostentatious lifestyle but definitely middle class.

It's a grey pattern to offer your product at 1 rate but implicitly you impose an additional 12-20% . Just pay them more, and charge more for the product, the end result is the same from the consumer. If the workers are no longer satisfied, there are other sales and marketing jobs that offer real salaries plus bonuses/commissions as mentioned above.

It is my understanding that in the US, you're not paid minimum wage. Waiters are paid mostly by tips.

Some may have no wage! Tips only.

Where I live, this is illegal, and I suspect in Europe too, and this is where the lack of understanding comes from.

Now, coffee shops? People behind counters are not waiters, so I am unsure of wage issues, in the US.

There is not an infinite supply of students who have the time to do that job. Our son worked at a coffee shop. Until the manager started pressuring him to work more hours than he had time for.

Some people think other people's jobs are bullshit. And then you end up with a shortage of competent workers. Every job should be lucrative.

Im also assuming that a lot of waiters dont pay taxes on the tips (at least when they are paid in cash), which would probably account for some of the difference in income between salary and tips. Here in the EU (most of the countries) at least we have good healthcare and education that is payed from those taxes, so you dont need to pay a 1k private insurance on a waiters salary.

I've never been in the US, but just thinking about having to pay more then what was written and knowing that due to not having a lot of money, I could get in trouble, gives me anxiety...

When I lived in France and spent time in Germany, I always tipped a lot just to make a statement... but I understand that the waiters there are actually paid by the restaurants, so it's not necessary.

Not a legal expert, but that looks very much illegal.

It's the same as strippers. Better, because strippers often have to pay to dance.

Second, even if it DID happen, that is the fantastically rare situation, that is extremely bizzare. You can read here and everywhere that this is not how it is done, so you don't make a judgement based on one single time, especially when no one else ever has had that experience.

I've left restaurants many times without paying a tip because of exceptionally poor service, it's never happened to me. I've never heard it happening to anyone.

Yeah, totally 100% do not believe you. Sorry, man. I just don't. Again, unless that server was actually and really truly mentally ill, and not using the term colloquially.

The thing is, you DON'T have to tip. I have walked out of restaurants before without tipping when I got super shitty service. You can pay 5% or 10% or 15% or 20% or 25%.

And the thing is that here in the USA, everyone LOVES tipping. Customers, good nice customers, love tipping. Usually it is the whiny bitchy horrible customers that don't like tipping, and if there was not tipping, they would be whiny bitchy horrible customers anyways. This much I know to be true.

If you don't have a lot of money, just go and be honest and tell the wait staff that. Be honest. I mean, don't be going and ordering $800 worth of food and say you don't have a lot of money because that would be horrible thing. But if you have a very little money, just apologize and say you'd love to but can't.

Also, these days you can go online and see exactly how much the food is, and add on the tip. Just see what you want, add 15%, and you know. This is not difficult. It won't get you in trouble if you take an extra 30 seconds to look up the menu on line, right? And ffs, if you order $30 dinner, and the tip is $4.50 and you don't have enough money to cover it, why on earth would you go out to a restaurant in the first place? Stay at home and make a nice pasta dinner that is just as good as a restaurant and pay $1 or $1.50. Or euros, I think the exchange rate is pretty close to one-to-one. If you go out to a restaurant and go broke over $4.50, your issues are a lot deeper and worse than not having $4.50 tip. Like, you should see a professional therapist about why you would blow the tiny bit of money that you do have on a $30 meal when you can spend $1 and eat at home.

The point is that it's not included on the label as the price I pay at the register.

For me, living in Texas, I would assume the final price is 10% more than the sticker price calculation. When I was buying groceries, this generally meant I was always "under" my estimate because most food isn't taxable in Texas. But I was never surprised by the final total at the register. At restaurants I assumed 20-25% depending on what the numbers were.

Now that I live in Europe, I don't even notice. They tell me the total, I pay. End of story.

> Hi, my name is Bobby, I am gonna be your server today. Blah blah blah blah...

It always comes across as angling for tip money. Waiters here don't usually introduce themselves by name and you generally have less interaction unless of course you start conversing. I prefer the lack of expectation if the and waiter does a good job, then I am more than happy to tip a little. I am in Catalonia where tipping isn't a big thing. Not sure if it's because of the Catalan reputation for being tight with money, or having read Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia", it is related to when tipping was banned and the city was run by anarchists.

In America we like to call people by their name, not their title, especially for a service role. Otherwise it comes off as very classist and elitist. Someone calling out "Waiter!" would come off as a bit of an asshole, to be honest.

I’m terrible with names, though.

But if they are busy, then I'll do an "Excuse me" really nicely and just loud enough so they can hear - not too loudly, and they will nod and that usually is it, and I know it to mean that they will get to me as soon as they can, they acknowledged me. And if it is super busy, I'm cool if it takes a little longer than usual. It happens. If I'm in a hurry, I'd go to McDonalds. Not really, I hate it, but that's the idea.

In Argentina I revert to "chico"/"chica" but ...is that offensive? Hah.

You want to use standard and customary forms of communcation, though. You can be a little friendlier, or a little more formal, but it's never good to stray too far if meeting or talking to a person the first time.

However, if you get a bead on the person and their personality, you can adjust your style to theirs is best.

Everyone in business is "fake." Your auto repair person, the person at Best Buy, people at the clothing store. Of course people are "fake."

However, they are people, too. I am always SUPER SUPER nice to people who are "fake" to me in restaurants or clothing stores or wherever, and they so much appreciate it that 95% of them actually are NOT fake nice to me anymore. As I wrote elsewhere, many times I got a desserts "on the house" at restaurants when I go out in groups, because I make it so enjoyable for the wait staff.

Of COURSE it is angling for tip money. I have walked out without paying a tip for crappy service. I paid zero.

I know wait staff is "fake" nice because they want tips, but if I'm genuinely nice to them then they are "real" nice. And if you are a regular at a restaurant, and tip well, everyone will know you and you will be treated as royalty. And you usually get the same server, who knows your kids names, where you work, and actually they care about you, but yeah, the customer knows the waiter or waitress does not work for free, of course. Neither does the customer.

And, we are all fake to people who give us money. We are ALL fake to our bosses. Nobody will go to their boss and be all, "Hey you fucking moron, another stupid fucking idea you have." Even if that is what one truly thinks. We all have different masks for different occasions.

In Europe, and Catalonia maybe, tipping is not expected, so it is not the culture. If I was there, I would not tip.

But again, the whole argument is ridiculous. If the meal is $30 (or euros), and a 15% tip is $4.50, then you pay $35 (I round up). If no tipping was allowed, the restaurant raises the price to $35. It's the same exact thing. Except if you get a REAL bad waitstaff, you pay $30, because that is what the tip is for. And bad service is if they are jerks, not if they spill a glass of wine on you, which sucks but is an honest mistake that can happen to any of us. I know a waitress who did that and she knew the customer well and bought him a nice shirt for the next time he came back.

But again, you pay the exact same price either way. So not sure why people have so much vitriole against it. And, so many Americans LOVE the custom of tipping. A lot of people go back to the same restaurants and love supporting a waiter or waitress that treat them well. I love paying tips, I usually don't pay less than 25%.

However, while you don't like it, a vast majority of Americans DO like it. I like it. The staff like it. Management likes it.

I guess the solution is that if someone doesn't like tipping, they should never ever go out to restaurants here in the USA. That would take care of it instantly for you.

But again, as I said, you will pay the exact same or more if tipping is included in the price! The exact same or more.

The thing is that if you don't want to leave a tip, don't. It's so easy. Just don't. Most wait staff would rather a dinner party leave without paying the tip rather than have whining - who wouldn't?

I've never had staff get angry with me and I've been going to restaurants probably longer than you've been alive. So I don't know where you're getting this from, unless you are lying for effect, to falsely bolster your case.

I've never had entitle person ever. I've always had fantastic relationships with the wait staff. Because THEY WANT to give you a great experience so that they can get a nice juicy tip. It's not fake on their side, any more than a Disney worker or auto repair shop owner is nice to their customers.

I've had such a good time with some wait staff, that they give me free desserts. I remember once my reputation for getting free desserts got around to a group of friends I occasionally hung out with. We were at the restaurant and said that it was bullshit and to do it right at that restaurant. I did. The waiter gave me a free dessert. Which are restaurants' main money makers.

Waiters are required to pay taxes on tips, but you are right, if they are in cash, well, they can break the law, but that's the same exact thing as if someone doesn't come to a complete stop at a stop sign. Anyone can break the law.

And as I also said, a LOT of restaurants, even high-end restaurants in New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco have tried no tips. But it was a disaster in almost all cases. Their wait staff would quit all the time, because a good wait staff person can make fantastically more money in tips. If a restaurant pays $25/hour (good luck on that) the wait staff would be paid $50K/year, but a good waiter can make $100K+ on tips. So the wait staff quit the no-tipping restaurants and move to a better, for them, restaurant.

But really, you are paying the exact same, or more, if it is all included in one bill with no break out. And by breaking out healthcare costs, you will actually pay less money for the meal than all included.

As far as healthcare and education being free in EU, that is irrelevant.

As a tourist to the US, it just seemed silly. The random sales tax percentage, the tip or no tip (calculated pre or post sales tax?) situation.

And due to the tipping thing, I had to carry cash, which I hadn’t done in 20+ years.

It felt like going back in time a very long way.

Ask for what you want, I’ll decide if I’ll pay it and I’ll come back if I liked the service.

Random sales tax on stuff for example is separate. This is not the fault of the business. The way USA government works is that sales tax is set by the county. There are 3,142 counties and county equivalents. Each charging their own tax amount.

Let's say you are a big store like Target with stores across the USA. They want to charge $25 for a pair of shoes. How do they advertise? They take out advertising all across the USA, and charge $25 for the shoes. Well, how do you put in the correct amount on the newspaper or website advertisement? You put it in the newspaper for $27.50 because one county charges 10% sales tax. But the next county over has a 7% sales tax. The correct price is $26.75. But that newspaper is delivered into multiple counties, in the same exact newspaper, so there is no possible way for target to put the correct price. It's literally impossible. So what they do is say the shoes are $25, and you pay the difference to the county as an extra. Because the business can do fuck all about it. In European countries, they probably have the same exact sales tax everywhere, so it is ok to do it that way. But Target isn't going to get the entire USA to change the tax code of 3,142 different tax jurisdictions. Good luck on that one.

For tipping, you don't have to carry cash at all. I never do. They have an extra line on the receipt to add the tip. I just round it and don't do it exactly, because it is easier and faster that way.

You want me to ask for what I want? Ok. I want to tell you the price of the meal and you pay a 15% tip. That is what I want. And I don't want anyone whining about it. If one wants to whine, just stay at home and cook a home-cooked meal. Everyone wins.

And, as I stated elsewhere, it is usually the people that are most vocal against tips that are the most pain in the butt customers anyways; even if there were not tips, they would still be the worst customers. Maybe not you, but most like that always have something more to complain about.

> It felt like going back in time a very long way.

I live in North America and tip for alot of things. Never paid cash. Not sure why you felt like you had to but can always tip on visa the rest of us do.

Maybe they aren’t supposed to be tipped, as we never got the hang of it and blundered about trying to avoid causing offended.

I think people also know non Americans aren't going to get it right. If they're the type of person to get offended over that, I wouldn't spend my time worrying about their opinion of me

Next, why do _some_ waitstaff make a lot of tips, and not others. You don't acknowledge how in almost every biased way possible tipping promotes some people, and punishes others.

Lastly, I personally find tipping and therefore your slightly aggressive defense of it, kinda gross? It's a power-trip at the end of the day to control someone else's actions with your money. Sure, that's life, but with tipping it's so blunt.

You are making a fair point that most people can't math.

On the other hand, people who can't do very simple math have bigger problems to worry about than tips.

>Next, why do _some_ waitstaff make a lot of tips, and not others. You don't acknowledge how in almost every biased way possible tipping promotes some people, and punishes others.

At least in theory, the point of tipping is to reward good staff and punish bad staff. The whole point of tipping is to create an income gap, with the hope that staff will be incentivized to be "good" staff so they make more money and be on the better side of the gap.

It's not unlike good employees getting paid better than bad employees, the only difference is that the incentives come from your customers rather than your employer.

>Lastly, I personally find tipping and therefore your slightly aggressive defense of it, kinda gross? It's a power-trip at the end of the day to control someone else's actions with your money. Sure, that's life, but with tipping it's so blunt.

Even without tips we are all going to engage in "controlling someone else's actions with money". That fancy restaurant that just billed you 3 or maybe even 4-digits? That money is so the staff are incentivized to treat you like nobility, among other luxuries you just enjoyed.

It's actually exactly like that. In the feral world of New York City wait staff, where people only live on tips and there is no base income, the income gap is extraordinary in the same shift in the same restaurant. And it's only slightly based on looks, or how "cute" someone is. It's almost entirely based on their skill and ability to serve the customer well. I could walk out with $250 a night and another waiter would walk with $350. He was simply faster, more clever and better at serving and charming the customers. I was a bad waiter. Of course, the prettiest women among us might walk out with $450, so I guess if someone really wants to complain about life being unfair, they could. But those girls needed to stockpile cash then while they were young. As an old man, a waiter can still make the same.

And yes, I can back this up: https://dol.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2023/01/p717_12-22...

$15/hr ain't exactly a living wage either, nor does it justify losing a table for an hour on four people who don't leave a tip. The difference between $15/hr in New York City now and $0/hr in 2002 is basically nil.

Waiters make their money from tips. If you ever work in the service industry in America, and serve them their breakfast, you'll understand why.

I have trouble finding the information on my phone but I'm pretty sure this was illegal federally since at least the '90s.

I'm not saying you're wrong.

There is skill and talent involved. We have all had shitty waitstaff wait on us, and great people, too. The great people get a better tip, even if they are uglier, or walk with a limp and have a hunch back like Quisimoto. In another post, I listed dozens of ways that one staff person can make more than another by using different techniques.

So if a meal is $48.75, then 10% is $4.88. Round it up to $5. Half of $5 is $2.50. $5 plus $2.50 is $7.50 tip. then add that onto the total of the $48.75 but I round the $7.50 up to $8 and so $48.75 and $8 is $56.75. Super easy to do in one's head in less than 30 seconds.

If lunch is $38.64, then 10% is $3.86. Round it up to $4. Half of $4 is $2, so $4 + $2 is $6 tip. Total is $38.64 + $6 or $44.64. Thirty seconds to calculate it.

You do rounding to make it easy - you don't do all the decimal points exactly, that sucks to do it that way. Rounding is close enough, and you round up.

.

Some waitstaff are better than others. They are more social. They develop regulars. That's where the real money is made. You get regulars. There are other tricks, too. Not all of them work every time for every person, but it is a statistics game.

Like if a waitress wears a flower in her hair, can make up to 17% more tips. Some people know how to upsell for a higher total bill and make more tips because of the percentage. If you draw a smily face on the bill, you will get a bigger tip. Studies have shown if you can entertain people when appropriate (unobrusively - you have to guage the situation), that can increase tips by 7%. If you have regulars, give them freebies - fucking EVERYONE loves a freebie. A study showed that if you give a weather forecast on the bill, the tip is an average of 22.2% vs 18% if they didn't - so when giving the bill you write "The weather is supposed to be great tomorrow, have a great day!" If you use your customer's name, you will get a bigger tip. Giving a gift increases tips - even giving a candy cane during christmas or candy corn during halloween, etc. Other ways: Squat down to talk to customers, smile a lot, write "thank you" on the bill. Read your customers. Learn what your boss wants so you get the better shifts more often. Get better customers and get them to come back to you and ask for you. Basically create an environment that predisposes customers to be generous.

Did this answer your question about why some make better tips?

>Lastly, I personally find tipping and therefore your slightly aggressive defense of it, kinda gross?

That's ok. None of us can please everyone. I'm positive someone finds things that you think or want as gross, and I don't mean that in a bad way. I very much am strongly supporting tipping, I think it is great.

>It's a power-trip at the end of the day to control someone else's actions with your money. Sure, that's life, but with tipping it's so blunt.

Eh. It's blunt everywhere. We all knuckle under to our stupid bosses we've all had in life because of money. And the thing is, that multiple studies have been made for waitstaff and they all WANT to be controlled if they make more money. Wait staff in the USA love tips, and they love the thought that if they give great service, that their tips can be larger - it gives them motivation. This is not me saying this, it's what the wait staff wants. They love it. Not every single waiter/waitress. People who suck at interpersonal communication probably hate it, of course. That would be logical. But it is a personal job, so they should find another job, quite frankly. And in general, customers don't look at it as a power trip, at all. Some do, but the vast majority do not. I don't. I'm not imperious, snapping my fingers for service, and ordering people around. That is just bad manners and an ill-mannered person who would do this even if there was no tipping. Because that is how people are.

more realistically, unless they are capable of finding another job that will pay as much they’ll just end up earning less without tips.

But what they found in restaurants that had the no-tip policy is that all of their really great staff found better paying jobs easily, and the shitty employees, or new employees, would be the ones that stayed. And the new employees would leave as soon as they were trained up, so all that was left at the no-tip restaurants were the shittiest of the shitty employees. This is what I read from a study on this exact situation of no-tip restaurants and the effect it had.

Then again, I am not in favor of say Amazon workers being exploited with very poorly paid jobs and conditions for their source of income over the long term. (Thomas Sowell gives some good arguments against minimum wage - I am on the fence and it boils down to "it depends").

Massively against them if they aren't paid like any normal job. If the intern is doing actual productive work(and let's not kid ourselves - they are most of the time), then they should be paid like any other employee.

The only exception I can see is companies that have training programmes with vocational schools, where you go and work somewhere for say 2 years training to be a carpenter or a plumber or electrician or whatever - then it's no different than being at school and learning. But I'd wager than 99% of internships are not like that, they are just a very cheap way to get unpaid(or poorly paid) labour under the pretense of "giving young people work experience". It's nonsense.

If you are an intern in a railroad you can move cars around the yard all day: you can move them to a loading dock, or to make up a larger set for a train, but at the end of the day you must move them back. However if any of those cars are moved to the dock are loaded/unloaded, or the larger train they just made leaves the yard, then they did useful work and must be paid for that.

I mean yes, but like you yourself acknowledged - that's a completely meaningless law. No intern is going to report this, because young people are just happy to have a job, no one wants to destroy their career right at the start. I myself was in that exact same position when I started - as an intern, my contract specifically said I can't be doing any productive work. Of course I did anyway. And I'm sure it still happens in every industry, because.....why wouldn't it. That's why I think unpaid internships just shouldn't be a thing at all, anywhere, unless linked to vocational schools that oversee them as a training programme.

All unpaid internships should have regular independent auditors because, as you say, interns are unlikely to report abuse of the law.

I am in agreement that apprenticeships seem to be a good thing that we should reintroduce. Working in IT, real world experience seems to count at least as much as anything I learned on university. The only times I have needed to implement a sort algorithm is for interviews.

That's fine then. I specifically mean internships which either don't pay anything or which pay some token amount like $100 a week for fuel expenses. If they pay a minimum wage then well, they are basic level entry jobs, that's fine.