I've been using Windows for about two years. Just this morning, when I booted into Windows, the boot loader (or whatever you call the part before Windows is fully loaded) prompted me saying I need to finish setting up. The only options were "accept" or "remind me in 3 days", so I accepted. Then it asked me to change my default browser to Edge. Apparently "finish setting up" means "we don't like that you are using Firefox".
This happened to me last week as well. I assume that this shit came with any of the recent updates.
It really infuriated me, especially the usage of the word "need" and the fact that the dialog doesn't offer an option like "no, and don't bug me with this ever again". Fortunately, after hitting the "remind me in 3 days" button, I looked a bit and found an option that does make it go away forever.
My Windows is in Spanish, so I don't know the exact name of the configuration settings in English, but you can find it in the Win+I configuration dialog. Look for "notifications and actions" (or something very similar), and there, look for a checkbox whose text reads something like "suggest ways to finish device configuration to get the most out of Windows". In fact there are six checkboxes in that screen and every single one looks like an annoyance, so I disabled them all.
Last week, a windows update wiped out the boot loader for my Linux install right before I needed the Linux laptop for an event. I had to cancel since I didn’t have time to repair things
It does this every 6 months or so. Windows is malware
That is unusual for a modern system that uses UEFI. The windows bootloader may set itself as the default EFI program, but other bootloaders should remain in the EFI partition. It's just a matter of changing the default back to Linux bootloader.
If windows does wipe out other bootloaders, then it's something serious to be discussed. Are you sure that's what happened?
That may be the fault of the UEFI implementation. Many are terrible - especially from the big OEMs. I keep rEFInd as my boot manager and let it deal with the rest. I also find a way to recover rEFInd if an OS sets its own bootloader as default. It may take trial of up to 5 different methods to find one that actually works.
I had this happen a lot on my dual boot system. After the fourth time I snapped and deleted the windows partition, it's too risky to have a computer that may or may not boot at the whims of forced updates.
MS ignores the problem too despite numerous complaints spanning years, when dozens of people are saying it's due to a Windows update and they insist it's something else it's probably fair to say this is Won't Fix for them.
My work around for this is to load a live usb, unflagged the EFI partion used for MS (remove boot/esp flags). Proceed to install, and reflag the MS EFI partition afterwards. Works a treat, and keeps my installs separate.
Another option, is to run windows or linux as a guest VM. You can setup a near native quest VM with device passthrough, such that you only ever have to boot your host OS but can drop down into a fully fledged guest when needed.
I'm doing both as methods as a way to slowly offload from windows to linux
The easiest way to avoid this which admittedly might not be possible on your laptop is to have Windows on a completely separate drive and to install them with only one drive in at a time. Then you can just use the laptops boot menu to pick. It's also a pretty quick fix in most distros with a live CD but yeah it's ridiculous that every Windows feature update will blow up the bootloader.
Just because you didn't have an issue doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Sibling comment by sreevisakh is correct though, it actually getting wiped is unlikely on UEFI systems.
Idk, considering it's my job and I've build dozens if not 100. Parent is doing it wrong. Windows doesn't just randomly wipe the bootloader/UEFI, sorry.
Dollars to doughnuts, parent was fiddling around and broke it.
> Apparently "finish setting up" means "we don't like that you are using Firefox".
I've noticed the same thing on an Android tablet recently, just with Google Play in place of Edge (and F-Droid in place of Firefox). That's unpleasant, but unfortunately not that surprising: dark patterns and other annoyances are quite common, particularly with commercial products.
Had Android give me a notification to prompt me to uninstall "Vanced Manager" because it is (can't remember exact wording they used) dangerous or malicious malware, or could make my device unsafe. If I didn't know the details, I'd have "trusted" Android(Google) blindly to know what's best for me and would have uninstalled immediately.
I haven't noticed this on my Android but I never even sign in to Google Play on them anymore. I just install F-Droid and Aurora store (for those apps which aren't FOSS).
I think this stops a lot of Google's skullduggery. Of course a google-free ROM is even better for privacy but I think this is a nice middle ground.
The good thing is that this way firebase notifications still work, but are not linked to my account (similar to using MicroG).
But it hasn't complained about F-Droid, not asked me to 'continue setting up' or anything. I do this on a OnePlus and a Samsung. YMMV of course.
I've observed it on Samsung, Galaxy A8; sounds like it varies from model to model then. And it didn't complain about F-Droid in particular, just its setup routine involves configuration of Google Play (signing in with Google).
I don't agree with what MS is doing here, but "I don't like being asked to use a different browser" is going to be a hard sell to your employer if they don't already have Macs as standard.
If they do offer Macs though then I'd say just ask them for one and say you'll be more productive. It shouldn't be a big deal for any reasonable employer, I'm sure they could find a new home for your current device as well.
That behavior is definitely abhorrent. I wonder, though, if you could get the message to go away for good by accepting the change and then immediately changing it right back after.
On the one hand, WSL has made Windows truly viable as a developer platform. But on the other hand, this sort of aggressive marketing bullshit makes it such an unfriendly place to be. I want my computer to treat me as an adult. Since it increasingly doesn't, I did the adult thing and walked away. If a relationship turns abusive, one must leave.
I would love to be able to pay for "Windows Professional" or something to get rid of this bullshit. But I guess my eyeballs are more valuable than my dollars. In that case, MS will get neither.
I moved back to Linux two months ago because of shit like this. Good riddance. Thankfully wine acts as the WSL for Linux, and makes the migration possible.
> I would love to be able to pay for "Windows Professional" or something to get rid of this bullshit.
That's kinda what I felt this Pro version was for, back in the good old days that would get you extra features useful for power users, but then recently they pulled this:
> New Windows 11 Pro installations will require Microsoft account
Basically the last credibility they had with me, with all the linux and open source things they've been doing since ballmer is gone. So uh yeah thanks microsoft, imma stay with Debian+Cinnamon a bit longer here o/
Microsoft's being really aggressive now it seems. Won't even allow you to install Windows Pro without having an internet connection AND a Microsoft account? They seem adamant to keep as many people as they can on Windows 10.
Hmm, this wasn't true for me. I just did a fresh install of Windows 11 Pro, and I wasn't required to have a Microsoft account...I did however install from a Windows 11 N source, and updated the license to my Education key shortly after installation.
> New Windows 11 Pro installations will require Microsoft account
I don’t really understand why this is a problem for you, let alone such a major problem. Takes two seconds to set up an account. I don’t even use Windows and I already have one!
It's perfectly natural to not want to have an account even if it's trivial to make, and even if you already have one, it's a basic privacy desire to refuse to link your computer to this account.
It's also a reasonable desire to have your computer local authentication be completely separate any from Microsoft service, ensuring that the events are private and don't even get communicated to Microsoft, much less being able to circumvent local authentication by anyone who is in control of that cloud account.
> it's a basic privacy desire to refuse to link your computer to this account
Seems a bit tin-foil in these days.
Which is a fine preference for an individual if they’re into that scene, but you can understand why Microsoft doesn’t care about such a tiny proportion of society.
I find it amazing that you can say such a thing with a serious face. Time after time, we learn that the question isn't "are you paranoid", it's "are you paranoid enough". State actors trying to get your data, hackers trying to get and sell your data, hackers trying to lock down your computer and blackmail you; the list goes on and on. The less "connections" you have to third party services, the safer you are.
Locking your car door is not going to prevent someone from stealing things in it if they choose do. However, it will make it more difficult for them. Every vector by which we can reduce our vulnerability makes us safer. The goal is to be "safer", not "safe".
We can generate power to feed the world off the anger and resentment you're building right now. Partner up with me and we can submit this to YC. I'll give you 50%.
These days? Surely these days it is beyond any reasonable doubt that not only were a lot of the tin-foil fashionistas right all along but also the suggested dangers of modern always-connected technology do now actually harm real people in real ways quite often. Just look at the subject of this very discussion.
The most disturbing thing is that it's still only a relatively small proportion of society who will actively try to avoid the trap. From my own experience it's not even that the others don't care -- plenty of them are well aware of what is being done to them and they don't like it -- but they think the alternatives are just as bad and they're (reasonably enough) not willing to become digital hermits who are disconnected from normal life just to avoid the likes of Microsoft, Google and Apple.
Does anyone not have genuine security concerns given how expansive and personal computing has become?
We’re not talking about a single app or website. MS is a trillion dollar corporation that controls both the OS and in many cases the hardware layer.
The “stock” version has unjustifiable defaults and I quit using Windows myself a few years ago due to exactly the issues people in this thread are complaining about.
I just want to say that I admire your dedication to your position, as devils advocate here. Even if your justifications for these are all basically "so what who doesn't mind police doing a little searchypooo at random what's the harm, you're not doing anything wrong right? It doesnt have to be a problem just lettem touch your weewee a little"
Because it's what comes on the computer they bought from the store and because they don't know enough to do any different? Most people aren't tech experts. They buy a computer to do stuff and they follow the instructions in front of them or maybe ask someone they know for help.
Congratulations. You strawmanned. So where does the heap fallacy start kicking in? Because every feature I see delivered seems more tuned for keeping a PM working than actually making the user's life any easier.
They gave up every pretense of gaining or humoring "consent" when the implemented Cortana's little "you need to agree to this or, ya know, no windows" bs.
The problem isn't the set up process. It's the practice of having to have one.
I don't even care if I have a MS account or not but I really don't want it linked to my own computer. It means someone with access to my MS account can access my computer too, and it means Microsoft can collate all my recorded telemetry activity to my identity.
If your OS installation is bound to an account, and this account is blocked for some reason (which is not too hard to imagine, since on HN there is a post about such things happening twice a week) - what may be the consequences of this?
I've been totally ok with folks getting booted from twitter/social media sites for various reasons. But access to fundamental resources like your own computer or primary email address is a different story. The rules need to be much more stringent there
You shouldn't lose your gmail account for being an asshole on youtube, and one shouldn't lose their access to their local computer even for commiting fraud on the MS app store (whatever it's called)
One should be able to get banned from gmail if you really break the rules of course, but great care needs to be taken, and the same care (and even more) to make sure you don't lose access to your own computer.
Imagine that all your files have been helpfully encrypted --- for your security, of course --- with a key that is bound to that account you can no longer use.
I'm not sure if this is possible or the default now on Windows, but it's common for mobile devices.
If the original commenter didn't want to use Windows anyway, then they've not lost anything. Presumably they did want to use Windows, and are not because of this issue, so they have lost some benefit they originally wanted, and gained nothing because their system was already controlled by MS. Hence it's pointless.
> In all the conversations, it comes out how powerless people feel. You might think that if a company decides to algorithmically block people, there is a support department that can easily reverse mistakes, but that is not true. The department that deals with it is hard to reach. Or, as one customer service rep told BroncoJasperado, "The only team that has access to this is the team that you can reach through the form you already filled out. They are also not reachable by phone and are not located in an office that you can visit."
These are paying customers of Microsoft's.
Recently also a Dutch judge said MS had to unblock an account because MS could not provide the evidence why it was blocked. Something about american laws and child pornography that was allegedly stored on the account (I can look up the article if you want).
In most cases, the judge just rules it's fine because they're a commercial service and they are under no obligation to have you as a customer. You have to sue to even hear as much as "the cause was X" (even if they then can't/won't/don't provide X as evidence). There is little to no recourse.
A typical user whose MS account is banned might lose access to:
- Their game collection in Xbox / game pass
- All documents, pictures, etc. in OneDrive. A family member actually has all documents for their business on OneDrive because there is this history thing (can't permanently remove things by accident), MS guarantees your backups, it's all hands-off and super safe. On my recommendation, they did end up making an offline backup just in case... but I imagine that for every person like that family member, there are also a hundred business owners that would simply lose their business data.
- Microsoft Office products bought via 365
- Presumably purchases on the microsoft app store, but last I checked it contained only a few dummy apps and had horrible UX so I don't know how much this is used now
- Your email on Outlook.com
- And now also their computer? What is this, ransomware?
So for me, my Microsoft account being banned (one of probably a dozen by now) would have as impact that I can't play a game anymore that I paid for. I'd be pissed but it gets so much worse if you're a Windows user.
And it's not just MS, it's also Google (there the worst I could lose is a Youtube account where I've uploaded a few unpopular videos over the past decade), Facebook, etc.
>Since it increasingly doesn't, I did the adult thing and walked away. If a relationship turns abusive, one must leave.
I'm happy how you formulated this thought. I feel the same way. I don't deserve this level of distrust and micromanagement in my own digital home. In my opinion a Professional edition that really works like one would solve this issue for real but again, my conclusion is the same, that the end goal must not be to make a good operating system.
Linux is a haven compared to the state of things and especially in this regard. And Wine is a wonder.
You can obtain (in your preferred way) a copy of Windows 10 LTSC (IoT optional). I run it, and can develop, do administrative work, play games, and more. I have not had any issues with it. I think there's some littered telemetry but man, I just deal with it.
LTSC is unfortunately no longer the privacy bastion it used to be (especially in the LTSB days).
It now has the same choice of (only a little / very much) telemetry that regular windows has, has the ability to link microsoft accounts etc. The only real advantage is that they don't really push any new things to it.
Apple pulls this crap too. Use a different browser on Mac and get a "helpful" notification telling you to try the new Safari. Only place you're safe these days is a fully FOSS OS like Linux and FreeBSD.
I don't use Apple products but I don't think this is outrageous or something. Why shouldn't a company that sold me a refrigerator be able to point out that it produces ovens as well?
Of course I despise what Microsoft does, it's absolutely over the top.
Because its annoying and ridiculous? They also do it WHEN you open another web browser. Imagine if your Acme fridge had a camera that noticed every time you opened your non-Acme oven and bleated out "Try the new Acme Oven! You'll love its efficiency and design!". Is that okay?
Compared to Windows, the notifications for trying Safari are nothing, and switching browsers aren't so much of a hassle. Microsoft actively tries to push you to Edge in the settings and a to get a Microsoft Account at start up. A couple of times I've been stopped at start up because of the "You need to finish updating" screen with those prompts, sometimes afterwards I see that my taskbar now has the Mail and Edge app pinned automatically. In comparison my Macbook throws up an ignorable notification in the corner if I open Firefox. For your analogy, your Microsoft Fridge is turning off the power supply for your house unless you go and turn it back on by yourself or buy the Microsoft Oven.
You're right thats its not actually every time but neither is this Edge install thing. If you click "Later" I think it won't do it for 3 days according to this blog post [0] and I think that's still accurate. If you hit Try Now I think you get a little more time to whenever Apple updates Safari/macOS.
Once a year when Apple does an OS release isn’t too unreasonable. Apple’s iOS policy is completely unreasonable, but IMO Mac has stayed quite ok. The only thing I really don’t like is the rigmarole you have to click through when opening an app from the internet for the first time, but that can be turned off (and it will stay off)
If people accept it, then it will get normalized, then the next level of abuse will come and you'll be happy because the water is only going up a degree or two. Frogs are best boiled slowly. They'll never notice, the suckers.
It's about the erosion of computing freedom. How distant is so helpfully nudging you to use a particular, blessed program for your security and convenience, to just mandating it? See Apple, for example, who has successfully normalized the device manufacturer dictating what software is allowed to run on the OS, and it's conveniently the one from its own store, paid for through its own gateway and sometimes whose cloud storage and network functionality is controlled by state agencies. That's something that really matters.
It really matters. That it doesn't matter to you is something I'm fine with, but user freedom to use their computers as intended is not something that is trivial to me.
It does matter to me, I hate it when slimy sales tactics are the norm. I’m saying the boiling frog idea does not really apply here. It is essentially a spam issue.
Ah I see, when you look at it that way, yes, the instance itself is a bad enough thing. But the problem is that the step up from the previous n abuses is small enough that some percentage of the users will accept it, hence the froggy bits. They just keep doing worse thing, I'm trying to imagine the FF from a decade ago doing this and trying to get away with it. The users that are still left are the die hards, everybody else is already gone, they either can't leave or the won't leave (or both) until it is too late.
> I think this logic should be reserved for the cases where it really matters
I disagree, because by then you've lost the ability to fight back. If you let the little bad behaviors go, you set a precedent that's hard to fight against.
One could argue we're seeing that in realtime with your argument that everything is still fine...
I don't think we need to rehash that bit over and over again, it's a well known that the story is apocryphal but it serves as a useful metaphor, which I think by calling it a myth you are well aware of. Or were you genuinely interested in boiling living frogs?
>Why shouldn't a company that sold me a refrigerator be able to point out that it produces ovens as well?
How often would be too much?
What if you already bought an oven and it was still 'pointing out' that the company produces fridges (like you just bought) as well?
Every six weeks acceptable?
I accept that when i go downtown/ to a shop my eyeballs count. But inside my home, on my systems? No thanks.
> Why shouldn't a company that sold me a refrigerator be able to point out that it produces ovens as well?
Depends on how big that company is in the fridge market. Using a monopoly power in one market to dominate another is textbook abuse of monopoly power and exactly why MS got sued for IE back in the day.
”Helpful” notification is much less than Microsoft is doing indeed. After all, Mac is commercial OS and Safari is their product so at least a little bit is allowed. But Microsoft is closer and closer banning anything they don’t want.
Silicon Valley has a huge problem with user consent and respecting “no” from users. The whole industry feels like a guy at a club asking people “Hey, you should date me. Allow? [Yes | Ask Again in 5 Minutes]”
Reminds me of the time when discussing some feature changes with an UX designer and I said something along the lines of "well, going against users wants/wishes can't be good UX" and they basically replied "but of course it can :)"
No I don't. They're both advertisements. One happens only at install. The other when you use a competitors program. Both are despicable behaviors from an OS. It's like asking whether I prefer dog or cat turds on my carpet. They're both turds.
That’s reductionist to the point of stupidity. They are also both words, so I guess there’s no difference between them and this comment?
Except words have meaning, and the differences between these meanings are important.
One set of words is telling you that you are not safe unless you use this browser. It’s implying you’re making a mistake by using Firefox, and in both cases it’s saying “the people who make your computer are telling you to use this thing”. Non technical people are easily fooled by this. It’s scary.
The other one is saying “hey, Safari exists” in the corner of your screen.
There is no difference. In both cases someone is pushing their opinions or interest into your view. That's advertising, plain and simple. The text of the ad doesn't change that. Apple may not have the advertising bug as bad as Microsoft, but the are both reprehensible. I can't see why anyone would voluntarily use either one of them.
I use Brave on w10.
How do you validate one browser being 'slightly better' (even 'just') than another?
Me? I just like brave.
The rest can all FO for now.
I used to try new/ different ones irregularly but brave just seems ok-for-me for now.
The idea that Nadella is somehow a saint vs Ballmer's evil is really testimony to the fantastic PR exercise that MS has been engaging in. But ask yourself where Nadella was working when Ballmer was at the helm of MS and you'll see that he isn't as much of a change at all, it's just a nicer package.
Google started doing this with their search. And still does, regardless of how many times I say "I'm not interested". And as someone else mentioned here, Safari does the same.
And Microsoft follows suit.
Irritating as all hell, but complaints hit HN front page only when it comes to Microsoft.
I do wish, though, that Microsoft would take the moral high ground.
I have seen more and more that it is Apple that usually starts these practices, and since their users generally give them unlimited leeway towards these things (happening right now in this very thread!) it becomes the new standard. Then Microsoft, Google and others follow suit. The "try Safari" notifications when opening Chrome or Firefox have been a thing in macOS forever. Same with advertising and upsells built into the OS.
For a while, there would be a macOS notification suggesting that you try Safari after updating. This notification should be gone with the latest macOS. Are you talking about something else?
Apple may have started the latest round of this. But Microsoft was aggressively pushing their browser clear back in the 90s, and I don't think Apple was.
Well Safari did not exist in the 90s but Apple was bundling Safari with iTunes back in the days (https://www.cnet.com/culture/apple-pushes-safari-on-windows-...). It was auto-selected, so people who quickly click on 'Ok' for updating iTunes would find themselves downloading an extra 20+mb and installing a browser they did not want.
Apple has been blocking 3rd party browsers on iOS for 15 years, it's only going to make the front page so many times. Similarly macOS has held a pretty consistent stream and lets switching be easy, limiting it to some notifications which really isn't that unreasonable. Microsoft lately has been on a rampage to go from it being relatively frictionless to it being as scary and inconvenient as possible for the user. At one point even requiring the user to manually switch each protocol and file extension over to the other browser but allowing Edge to automatically change them back for the user!
Google gets similar complaints but it gets stifled because by the numbers people are generally trying to install Chrome so they don't really care the Google page asks them "do you want to install Chrome" when they open it initially. Still scummy but most aren't going to complain about being prompted to do precisely what they wanted to do.
nit-pick: They don't block 3rd party browsers, they just don't allow 3rd party browsers to have full access to the device, so they are less performant than Safari, which does have full access.
Well third-party browsers need to use the operating system’s built-in components for displaying web pages (ie WebKit) so one cannot port a desktop browser with its own backend (say chrome with Blink/V8 or Firefox with Gecko/Spider Monkey) to iOS. You can only create what is effectively a safari skin.
It’s not all bad though; safari is for example quite good at having low power usage.
These Firefox statements are severely outdated. As it stands right now:
- Stock Firefox for Android allows a limited set of extensions including the most popular extension uBlock Origin.
- Firefox Nightly allows the installation of any extensions though this is not enabled by default and requires jumping through some hoops.
- F-Droid Fennec allows the same extension loading functionality as found in Firefox Nightly without having to leave stable.
That said there are still extensions that won't work once installed as not every API is covered. Far more work (orders of magnitude more) than the short list in stock stable Firefox though.
My bad. I meant full proper desktop-grade support for addons and devtools like what kiwi does for chromium on android. From your comment, it seems that proper full is still disabled on both stable Firefox and Fennec.
Since I'm not really interested in using nightly or jumping through hoops, I'll just continue using kiwi which is able to support both my requirements just fine.
Interesting, this seems recent, they launched iOS app support in June. Mullvad is usually solid . Would be good to know if this be integrated into Firefox VPN client variants
Further nitpick: it’s that 3rd party browsers can’t provide their own JavaScript JIT system, and to use Apple’s, the developer must use the built in WebKit libraries.
Yep. Whenever I search for anything on Safari on my iPhone, the search results page has a static div saying "Fast access to Google. Get the new Google widget. Get the app". Close it with the 'x', and it reappears next time.
So far I've stuck with Google on my phone simply because its local search is better than Kagi's, but I'm this far away from jumping to Kagi on the phone too.
On the other hand, I find Firefox 's behavior annoying as well.
On one of my Firefox installations, when I start it, it always asks me to become the default browser. Which I don't want, so I set the "don't ask me again" checkbox. Yet it will ask me again. The Firefox support forum mentions several workarounds, none of them working.
Also, there are additional random /modals every once in a startup, asking me to try out new design feature X. I'm never interested, I just want to use a web browser.
All in all, I'm more annoyed by Firefox than other browsers.
In fairness though, that first behaviour you've described sounds like a straight-up bug. I very much doubt that anybody at Firefox HQ intends this to be the case.
I get that bugs can be annoying, but "my browser has an annoying bug" is a million miles away from "my browser monitors when I search for competitor's software and warns me that I shouldn't use it".
Sounds like this is unique to you and your system? I've been using Firefox for casual browsing for years and I experience none of these issues. As in I don't even know what you're referring to honestly because I've never seen such things in all these years of having it. Chrome is set as my default browser btw.
The only "pop-up" - if you can call it that - I ever get is the one telling me a new version of FF is available for download.
I use Edge and although I have heard of the feature it has never been presented to me. Firefox on the other hand prompts me for unwanted Mozilla offerings and puts Disney ads in the browser.
The year is 2022 and everything is now equal. The human race has decided to never use nuance again.
Worlds biggest corporations trying to stop you from installing a free community built browser is the same as it asking you nicely once to become the default
Chrome isn’t hawking a news platform on the new tab page with sponsored links, pushing you towards a co-branded VPN, or showing ads for random media properties.
Good lord Firefox has fallen from grace in search of revenue. I still use it as my daily driver but they’re killing the golden calf in an attempt to save it.
Yes. But I’m not delusional that my contribution matters.
They should search for revenue like all community projects. Get companies that have a stake in FF existing because they distribute it — Canonical, Red Hat, AWS, Oracle to put up cash and pay developers to work on it.
The only FOSS models that have a track record of success are:
* Run ads which is really shady.
* Be a true community project and be developed by the people who use it.
Why? They’re both nagware using the same patterns to get users to make them the default browser. The only difference is that MS can put the notifications in the OS and Google can put the notifications on Search.
Same game, Firefox is just in the minor leagues because they don’t have valuable digital real estate in addition to the browser.
Or putting "suggested links" on my new tab page, and adding news. I really don't care what kim kardashian had for dinner.
Sure, it can be turned off but it seems like every few weeks I have to go hunting around to turn some new spammy shit off. And even though I sync my settings through firefox sync, these adware 'features' don't seem to sync their settings when I turn them off.
I've got a theory google owns pocket and just does it to make us look stupid for using Firefox with some random trash bolted on. Also remember Firefox hello or whatever messenger was once bolted on?
macOS does something similar -- when I was setting up my parents' machines I discovered that if you start using not-Safari it starts sending notifications telling you how great the latest Safari is, which is very irritating.
While both are bad (and should probably be illegal), I would argue that Microsoft's are much more insidious, wrapping everything in a language of "accept the default trusted option?"
Agreed that the MS example is more egregious and that both should be illegal, but moreover, these tech companies need a massive culture shift -- both MS and Apple invest an extraordinary amount of effort in reducing user freedom / ownership (which is basically why I went back to Linux after 15 years on a OSX/macOS).
> macOS does something similar -- when I was setting up my parents' machines I discovered that if you start using not-Safari it starts sending notifications telling you how great the latest Safari is, which is very irritating.
It grates to defend Apple, but that is not my experience. I cannot recall ever running Safari on the Mac I use. I use Firefox only. I cannot recall being harassed by he MacOS to switch.
If you do a new install of Mac OS there is a one time notification which encourages you to try Safari if you set Chrome as default or Firefox. I know, I just installed it on an old iMac. It's not as obnoxious as the Windows dialog.
Interesting. I don’t see these. I brew install brave-browser, select it as my preferred and have never been bothered by any of these prompts. I’m curious what’s different in the mechanisms.
The repeated prompt that goes drive me nuts in macOS is the encouragement to get some more iCloud backup. Why can’t it detect I have a time machine backup running on an external SSD and leave me alone?
Well just tried it. Edge > opened Bing > "Firefox" > Click on first Firefox hit > Download. And nothing like that happened. No pop up or nothing. And I'm using a Windows 10 PC with an MS account logged in for Office365 + Gamepass
This is what I don't like about social media sites like HN either where only the rage will reach the front page
Simply because you didn't experience it for yourself does not mean it's not real. It's proprietary software, it's not like you can easily take a look under the hood.
A few days ago, for the first time in years, I tried installing Windows. Booting Windows for the first time was shocking, and I didn't realize how bad things had become. I experienced the same banner warning trying to dissuade me from installing Firefox among many other annoyances (focus stealing, missing drivers, Windows update taking far longer than it should, adverts, just to name a few).
People give Linux a bad rap, but holy shit, using Windows for the first time in years was a truly miserable experience. Not once did I feel like it was a tool there to help me, it felt hostile.
I think windows 10 is a very good system spoilt by a thin veneer of hostility masquerading as 'lifestyle' and 'recommendations', and liberal dollops of confused attempts at updating the UX while trying not to take too many risks.
Bought a new system recently, "upgraded" from win7 to win10. It's a straight up downgrade in almost every single way, including performance/responsiveness... on a new system with a CPU which has double single threaded performance (if we take multithreaded perf, it's way more)
And that's after some rather serious debloating...
The only reason for the upgrade is that some software doesn't support win7.
As expected the only thing which works better/faster on the new PC is games.
It's a downgrade in UX/UI too, it looks way worse than win95 classic theme (no point comparing it to aero)
1.1: separation of reserving memory from committing it, thus making overcommit unnecessary, when you want to have memory arenas and reserve a large contiguous chunk of virtual address space, but commit it (so tell the system that you actually want this virtual memory mapped to some physical memory), when you need it. So you can grow your arenas as you need more memory, without worrying that you may not have enough virtual space due to fragmentation, and without relying on invisible things like lazily committing memory on page-faults as long as your program doesn't have any bugs which make it touch that memory in advance and thus make the bugs go unnoticed silently and increase memory use
1.2: ability to implement a circular buffer[1] with a contiguous view instead of head + tail parts; thus making it possible to pass your ring buffer to functions which expect a normal array, and also avoid branches and complexity in code operating on the buffer.
Generally, VirtualAlloc > mmap IMO.
2. Behaviour in OOM conditions. Linux can become completely unresponsive for minutes. Windows is usually responsive enough to kill the offending applications.
3. GUI apps have reasonable baseline for performance of GUI. On Windows it's expected that watching YouTube/Netflix you won't see screen tearing. On Linux screen tearing with VOD in browsers is completely unsurprising.
4. Powershell is nice for a whole variety of reasons.
5. CreateProcess > fork [2]
6. MSVC, unlike GCC and Clang, doesn't come with guns for your children when you unknowingly dare trigger UB.
To solve (2), install earlyoom. The problem gets bigger the more RAM you have. The OOM killer runs far too late in my opinion, and earlyoom just gets it to trigger before that point where the system becomes silly.
I must be missing something, because from what I can tell your screen recording does not in any way counter the claims being made in the tweet. Firstly, you do indeed see the "There's no need to download a new web browser" message on Bing. Secondly, the recording finishes just before we see the Firefox installer which is the point when, unless I'm mistaken, the "To protect your PC we recommend only running Microsoft verified apps" allegedly appears.
A/B testing strikes again. It should be illegal at this point. It renders googling and rtfm useless, frustrates people, wastes time, and makes having online conversations about a problem difficult. Plus we are not even sure it results in improvements in the long run.
Interesting. If it is indeed experimentation on human subjects then then they are in violation of tons of laws and regulations around informed consent. Makes me wonder what’s in the click through agreement
If somebody would come in the night, and change the direction your fridge door open, then back. Then another day, put all your socks in a different drawers. Then back. You would start to think it's not a good thing.
There is really something weird with our virtual tools: we tolerate things that we would consider bonkers IRL. Like a newspaper shop asking for your phone number before you can read an article, or a library reporting the books you buy to the local candy shop.
A/B testing is one of those things: you have product you paid for, and the people who sold you the product change it without telling you, then revert abruptly the change, like it was a bad dream. But only sometimes, and not for your friends, who think you are crazy to believe it happened.
Anyway, there is an easy test to know if what you are doing is the right thing: ask the users if they want to opt-in. Most of them won't say yes, because, who would want that? Like tracking and advertising, only a tiny minority of users are actually ok with it if they have a choice. If you had a ublock origin for A/B testing, wouldn't you use it?
The only thing this test doesn't work with are duties and chores, like payment. But A/B testing is neither of those.
You know. there really is an argument to be made that UI-related A/B testing on the public really is unethical. Feels really close to experimentation without consent.
I think backend/performance-related testing, opt-in testing, and internal employee A/B rollouts are fine though.
If I'm trying walk my mom through something by providing verbal instructions over the phone, then I really don't want to be on the other side of an A/B test.
An A/B test in such an instance is a HUGE diservice. I imagine there are others, but that that is what I can immediately relate to.
In such a case, I would feel like whomever implemented the A/B test directly caused needless pain and suffering: both of our frustrations and whatever inadequacies/helplessness my mother might feel.
So yes, I'm in the same boat: either make it opt-in, or make it illegal.
> Well just tried it. Edge > opened Bing > "Firefox" > Click on first Firefox hit > Download. And nothing like that happened.
Perhaps you should give your recording another watch. It clearly shows the "There's no need to download a new web browser" message box above bing's results.
I originally thought the word "download" in "firefox download" could be the contextual trigger for that behavior, regardless of browser. But your recording clearly shows that you searched only for "firefox", with no other context, and still had bing giving you the message, which confirms that they're singling out Firefox as a threat. Given the passive suggestion in their message that Firefox is slow, insecure, or costly in time or money, I'd say the outrage is justified.
Agree, I just downloaded Firefox onto my windows PC this week, experienced none of these things, and the process was really easy. I am in the US, so that could be an explanation.
That's so strange, I've experienced all of these things on multiple set ups over the past year+ (based in the US). I wonder what the difference is on why some users do/don't get this...
I expect that pcs of developers are excluded from spam harassment to prevent the only group who is capable of backlash and user-defense to engage in user-defense.
I conclude that you work with customer & privat person pcs while most of us here do not. Or are just most of the times on mac and nux.
(I am not the downvoter; misreading things happens to me a lot as well...) I think u/haunter meant that it's, thus, not an EU-wide thing, not that Hungary is not EU
Unless you are accusing the author of making up a fake story and screenshots, the fact that it isn't rolled out to 100% of users doesn't discount their experience.
It actually happened to me yesterday while I was installing Firefox on an old laptop I have lying around. I think it triggered the pop up when I ran the firefox installer or when I clicked on download not sure.
Had you ever installed Firefox/Chrome on that machine before? Based on my unscientific observations, it only happened the first time I tried to install a new browser after a clean install. After clicking through that popup once, it didn't come back when installing/updating any subsequent browsers.
The things in the article happened to me. There is nothing wrong with the article or the response to it. It's not fake, since that's what you're suggesting.
> Well just tried it. Edge > opened Bing > "Firefox" > Click on first Firefox hit > Download. And nothing like that happened. No pop up or nothing. And I'm using a Windows 10 PC with an MS account logged in for Office365 + Gamepass
Mozilla was caught "studying" (read, spying) on a tiny portion of its user-base who have explicitly opted out of telemetry. The fact that most weren't spied upon doesn't mean that it didn't happen.
This is what I don't like about people who make misinformed statements on HN.
open cmd.exe with admin privileges
> cd %PROGRAMFILES(X86)%\Microsoft\Edge\Application\[SOME VERSION NO.]\Installer
> setup --uninstall --force-uninstall --system-level
Prevent recurrence with some registry editing:
> create new key HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft/EdgeUpdate
> create “DWORD (32-bit) Value” and call it “DoNotUpdateToEdgeWithChromium"
Useless platitudes. It's a bit of victim blaming. Yes, I believe any Windows user is a victim. However, do you really think this person on HN would not switch to Linux if they did not have compelling reasons for having to use Windows?
I actually love Windows (although I haven't used 11 yet and probably never will).
Maybe it's just what I grew up with, but all the native widget interactions feel perfect, even after the Win 8 style transition. The mouse acceleration is exactly what I expect. The taskbar behaves precisely how I want a taskbar to behave. The filesystem layout is refreshingly straightforward compared to the Unix/Posix FHS. Windows Defender does its job and gets out of the way (remember Norton/McAfee and Spybot?). And there are a ton of nice graphical "power user" applications available.
Part of the reason I like KDE so much is that it feels so Windows-like. But every time I boot into my Windows desktop, I feel a bit sad knowing that there is nothing quite like it in the GNU/Linux world.
There is that one Windows-API-compatible OS, but I have no idea if that will ever be viable as a daily driver.
> Windows Defender does its job and gets out of the way
WD is easily bypassed [1]. It's all smoke and mirrors - Microsoft has never cared about security. The OS is full of wontfix exploits (this is frowned upon to talk about in the security research community, especially among the big players, wonder why...)
One would benefit in exploring the thought that WD is valuable for MS in the way that it can be used to restrict 'personal computing' - the applications you download and use, the files you download and create, all recorded and hashed in some database, all under the guise of security. DeCSS is a good example [2].
One would also benefit in exploring the thought of the possibility that MS spends significant amounts of money in paying off MS partners, researchers, news outlets etc. to convince the public that defender will keep you safe.
I repeat, Microsoft does not care about security. That said, a properly hardened Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC with telemetry removed [3], along with a third-party/router firewall is the way to go, in my opinion.
The repositories shown on the first page of GitHub search are not actual exploits. They all expect to be run through an admin powershell/command line. Under normal conditions (default user and UAC on) you will get a warning before the script is able to gain administrative access. Try to run them again under a normal user and they won't be able to disable/bypass Defender.
It's the same as sudo'ing an unknown script you received in an email. At that point you're begging to be pwned.
Sort by Best match or Most stars. Those github repos are just examples. Pro malware creators wouldn't just copy and paste some code or else it would be detected fairly easily.
UAC is easily bypassed as well. In fact, the majority of wontfix exploits has something to do with UAC.
> They all expect to be run through an admin powershell/command line.
Admin rights will be acquired by using exploits (of which there are many) or by using built-in tools found in the Windows system directory, for example Wscript.exe. No internet connection required. No fetching of external files. You have no say in whether you can allow it to run or not.
> you will get a warning before the script is able to gain administrative access.
False. You wouldn't even know. Not a visible commandline window to be seen. It's all silent. A well-developed exploit will delete most of it's traces.
This is all pretty basic knowledge in the sec research community. Test it and verify it for yourself. I test hardening configurations using a Windows VM.
lol don't have to be coy about naming it, it's called ReactOS. It's an OS project that attempts to be a clean-room implementation of the Windows API. The latest news about it popped up yesterday for being able to run some old Battlefield games: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30888799
Progress is understandably slow but since Microsoft has significantly lowered investment in Windows itself and are pivoting away from it to Azure, I can imagine a possible but distant future where Windows allows Wine & ReactOS to catch up because little beyond surface-level UI changes happen on Windows anymore.
It's victim blaming in the same way the partner of an abusive spouse gets told to just leave the spouse. Yes, partner is a victim, but there is a clear action to end the abuse.
There are a variety of games for PC that just aren't on console. If you want to play them, you do not have any alternative.
There are a variety of games where you need a mouse, or have grown up using a mouse, and switching to constroller is like asking someone who runs marathons to switch to sack racing. This is not an alternative on consoles.
Games are frequently cheaper on PC. MUCH cheaper. If you're on a budget, it's hard to justify.
Not all multiplayer games are cross-system compatible, and many never will be. If your friends play on PC, you can't switch to console without agreeing to never play with them again. Maybe you'll be the one to start the exodus if you try, but maybe not. That's a lot to ask of people, to buy a new console, rebuy all their old games, and then be okay with all the above-mentioned issues, including the network effect of your friends' friends who all play on PC, etc.
In short, there are quite a number of valid reasons to run Windows on your PC, especially if you play games.
I too wondered about how switching away from Windows would impact my access to games. My earliest memories are about games. My entire childhood was spent playing games, to the detriment of any other activity. My first non-burger-flipping job was in the gaming industry. Games are constantly on my mind. I love video games. But today, in practice, I don't miss any Windows-only games.
The first observation is that we're in a golden age of video gaming. There are so many quality games coming out, for every platform, that you could spend the rest of your life playing only the games available today and barely even make a dent in the backlog. The world has too many games as it is (which isn't a bad thing, to be clear).
The second observation is that, even though there are so many objectively high-quality games, I've become bored of almost all of them. Almost none of them have anything new to offer, and are, at best, refinements on existing formulas. Now that I'm older, I've seen all the formulas. For younger people, maybe they would suffer from not getting to have some formative experience in some Windows-only game. But I've put in my 10,000 hours, twice over, making me an expert in video games, and in my expert opinion I'm not missing out.
> Games are frequently cheaper on PC. MUCH cheaper. If you're on a budget, it's hard to justify.
It's not really the truth anymore. At best it's a couple of bucks on sale, day 1 prices are typically the same and have been for 10+ years at this point, PSN/XBL regularly have sales that are just as or close to as steep as Steam or even cheaper. Plus you can still resell that physical PS5 game and get something back which you haven't been able to do on PC for a while.
You don't have to rebuy. You just keep the old console if you want to play the old game. I still have 20+ year old consoles and games that work fine. While PC backwards compatibility is nice sometimes it's also a giant pain where you're spending 4 hours to figure out WTF Sims 2 won't launch on your 4K monitor (true story).
No, the sales are just as competitive. It's been there for years. Take a look at sites that keep price histories for Steam, PSN and XBL. Only real value in PC gaming is free online.
Most people don't keep around a whole stash of old consoles, while keeping a 10-15 year old steam account is way more common. If you game on PC you will most likely have a steam acc.
Meaning whenever and whatever kind of PC you get, you have your library.
Plus the abandonware, freeware, and all the giveaways (Epic store front regularly gives away all sorts of great games for free, even new AAA titles sometimes) and other goodies that come from an open platform.
If you just go to a store and buy a console, you basically have nothing, other than the F2P lootbox games. It's a closed platform so you have nothing. And have to rebuy stuff from zero if you want to play the games you had in past.
The fact I can just go buy a PC and have the whole steam library dating back to almost two decades is the real value. And that i'm not locked out.
Games like FF7R, GTA, anmy RPG etc, sure I play on playstation.
Good luck playing CSGO, Valorant, Leauge of Legends and my already massive Steam library on PS4 lol
Why would you suggest this as a "solution"
I run Windows 10 as it runs the software I want. Im on an install from 2015 when it came out and after chaning the default browser, desktop background, some settings customization, its fine.
I can also use my own desktop hardware. I have a i7 4790k, 32GB RAM and a 1070ti 3x 1440p monitors.
Why should I get a Mac?
Why would I want to buy some box for hundreds of euros/dollars that only plays games:
- with worse quality
- with no mod support for basically any game
- requires you to pay extra for basic features (e.g. looking at you, Nintendo, with your "savegames are not on the SD card but locked to the console unless you pay a subscription to back them up online, so if your Switch kicks it, they're gone"; etc etc)
- last I heard basically no setting customizability and locked framerates all over the place, like Bloodborne locked at 30fps with no anti-aliasing
- exclusivity garbage
- almost always controller-only input: shooters and (other) first-person games with controller? No thank you!
- the list goes on and on
Nowadays, with Proton I can play basically anything I want on Steam on my Ubuntu PC with minimal if any added effort (actually none in recent memory) with no problems, parity in frame-rate and stability to when I was gaming on Windows years ago.
Granted, I mostly stay away from the garbage that is regularly barely warmed-up and churned out by those greedy MTX-peddling bloodsuckers known as the "AAA industry".
Yeah I fully agree... incidentally I started a new job april 1st, my employer provided me with a windows laptop. That's why I had this knowledge ready.
First windows experience in many years, it's been equally gross and amusing.
A domain joined Windows laptop should have GPOs to remove the ads and shit also SCCM/Intune software center / company portal to install the apps you need.
Gross because the lock screen insists on serving me dumb ass photos with """interesting""" factoids, in an attempt to ???
Gross because I clicked somewhere by accident and the bottom right of my screen was filled with news snippets and some MS ads.
Hilarious because I wanted to change the (default ?) UI scaling from 150 to 100%; there was no obvious way to just type "scaling" somewhere and get to the point, instead I navigated three layers deep through the settings panel, which had three different visual design styles. I read all the windows design snark on HN, without really knowing what is what... turns out it REALLY is as bad as people make it out to be, haha.
I’m so tired of hearing this ‘just switch to Linux’ bullshit.
If you are privileged enough to be in the extreme minority who can do that - you probably already have.
I know you know this - but people need proprietary software, and they need to not guess if it might possibly work through some interpretative layer like WINE.
May I remind you a lot of people pay for software they need to use, and sometimes need support or updates that they certainly won’t be guaranteed if they are trying to run software on unsupported systems.
If you are somehow privileged enough to not be in that group, you are an extreme - extreme - outlier, and good for you, but don’t bury your head in the sand and forget that for 99% of people, that’s obviously not a possibility - whatsoever - including at least 90% of the workforce who gets handed a laptop and use whatever they have to use.
It’s just so irritating to constantly hear this ‘just go to Linux’ bullshit when it’s not like Linux users aren’t aware that it can’t work for the majority of people.
If I switch to Linux, I lose Photoshop, Logic Pro, Final Cut Pro, Unity, as well as a handful of plug-ins. That’s $1k plus of software I have paid for and rely on, that I instantly lose access to?!
The value loss upon switching to Linux - alone - for most people, who have invested into software ecosystems that can’t be replicated in Linux alone would be astounding.
It’s not even the money spent on software, either - it’s the time invested in learning it.
I know people who run Linux know this - I wonder why they seem to have forgotten.
I would also add that even in 2022 (last time I had a Dell Linux machine) lots of stuff simply fails.
E.g. wake from sleep often doesn't, webcams often just stop between exiting one video call and starting another, Bluetooth often stops, CPU throttling often doesn't do anything so you have battery life of 1hr max, external USB keyboards often "disappear" etc.
This sort of shit never happens on my personal Windows machine, Chromebooks, or work MacBook Pro (that replaced the Linux dell). I trust the tech people at my place of work to not screw things up in terms of distro, and it has been something that I have observed time and time again over the years with Linux on different hardware, different distros and different corporate environments.
The answer if often "turn it off and on again" (much like windows 95) otherwise you are on an tedious trip down remote support sessions with dmesg/lsusb/blueman/pulseaudio command line messing about. I am sure someone will reply "ah you need to make sure you use foo instead of bar!" or "that version of Bar is not compatible with Foo" or " your distro needs to back port patch Quux" ... that is part of the problem and why "just use Linux" doesn't work (yet).
People in the workforce that get handed over a laptop with Windows usually don't have any control on it due to company policies, so this is a non-argument. For the rest, I doubt 99% of people actually "need" Windows. 50%? Probably, possibly. Also, proprietary software has nothing to do with Linux or not Linux, there is proprietary software that's not Windows only.
I also don't think any of this is about privilge, it's about control. If you want control, you have to work for it. That's how everything works in life. People will always try to take away from you control. Switching to Linux may take work, but it will give you control. Learning a bit more Windows (like the operations mentionned earlier, the registery) will probably be easier and give you less. Everyone can then adjust things depending on how much control they want and time/energy they have.
I don’t get how losing access to the software I need to do the things I need to do - have spent quite a bit of money on - and a lot of time learning - gives me ‘control’.
Actually - it doesn’t. Plain and simple. I actually laughed out loud a little at the comment, ngl.
It’s actually that Linux is controlling me and what I can do. :/ Specifically, what I can’t do.
I’d lose thousands of dollars and years of investment into learning and using these tools I rely on.
It would cripple me completely, professionally - overnight. For real. I’d also lose access to a decade and a half of project files from Logic, etc.
It’s completely privilege if you happen to be in the minority that can find the time and value loss that switching to an OS that doesn’t allow you to run any previous software you’ve used (except Firefox, maybe :P) somehow works for you.
It’s funny - I have complete control over my ability to do everything I want to do on my Mac.
Switching to Linux immediately takes my entire command deck (Logic Pro X, Final Cut Pro X, various plug ins, Photoshop, Animator, Maya, Unity3D…I could go on…) away from me.
And what’s funny is - I have the ability to run most of the software I’d run on Linux on my Mac anyway, due to its underpinnings.
Then I’ve still got WINE…
So, the fact is - there are almost only disadvantages for a vast number of, especially average users - to switch to Linux - and most of that is the time and headache involved in unnecessarily learning a new system.
Most people don’t want to even deal with computers to start. And this leads to the biggest reason we will never have the ‘year of Linux’, and the biggest reason I laugh off Linux evangelists as totally ignorant of the ‘real world’.
Us nerds really get stuck in our tiny little corner of a perspective sometimes.
Very little demonstrates that more than Linux switcher evangelists.
The average person literally knows the like 4-5 tasks they need to do on their computer and they don’t want to know or learn anything else! Like, people are not like we are, and any serious Linux evangelist forgot that a long time ago.
To be honest, your reaction is so dramatic and I am not sure is it something personal.
But I could agree with you on this point. A average person literally knows the like 4-5 tasks they need to do on their computer and they don’t want to know or learn anything else. That's true.
Modern software, be it Windows, Mac OS, or you productivity tool is going to ruin your workflow by introducing non-reversible UI changes that sure no purpose other than telling the world that our product is not staling. That's the standard practice.
While I am using Linux desktop, with customized config that is not changed for years, and I don't need to learn a new workflow for these years anymore. That's good and I like it because I am getting old.
> I don’t get how losing access to the software I need to do the things I need to do - have spent quite a bit of money on - and a lot of time learning - gives me ‘control’.
We're in a discussion about how you can get Windows to do the things you want because of user hostile decisions made by Microsoft.
> It’s actually that Linux is controlling me and what I can do. :/
I don't think it's called "control" when it's due to an unconscious agent. Life is not "controlling" you because you will die one day. It's how things are. You can influence it, like living longer by not smoking, or porting over software to linux, or trying stuff out with wine or sharing how it works.
> It’s completely privilege if you happen to be in the minority that can find the time and value loss that switching to an OS that doesn’t allow you to run any previous software you’ve used somehow works for you.
You're making the fallacy of thinking that switching OS means you'll loss all software, which is absolutely wrong. Unless you happen to only use desktop apps that only work on windows, which puts you in the minority. A good part of Excel works online for example, same with most of Microsoft Office. Alternative also exists. And again, considering the post we're in, people are frustrated at windows, they're already spending quite some time and energy in trying to fix things or being frustrated at things.
You and everyone else are free to invest their time however you want. That doesn't mean it's the correct or best decision. There's nothing about that that's privilege. Some people work with Excel all their life yet refuse to learn more of it, even when they are offered formations at work. That's not lacking privilege. And again, it's perfectly fine if they don't want to do it. But the people that instead learn more Excel are not privileged in any way.
Edit following yours:
> The average person literally knows the like 4-5 tasks they need to do on their computer and they don’t want to know or learn anything else!
I'm glad we agree that it's in their power to do it and that they actually refuse to do anything about it. If you consider windows to be becoming too anoying (which is what this whole thread is about) and keep complaining and not doing anything, this is not because of a lack of privilege. This is on you. If windows is working fine for you, great! I'm happy to hear it! Same for MacOS. However, people are having issues frequently with closed source OSes. This one about windows, a recent one about MacOS: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30864613. For them, switching might be a solution.
I'll add that I don't really see the point of editing your comment to be even more snarky and less based on facts that it was before. Maybe reading the guidelines again would help you?
You're also in the extreme minority. Most users don't have close to thousands of dollars in paid software and often what they do have is something like Microsoft Office that has alternatives or easy options to get working like the proprietary paid software Crossover (that's right! Linux has proprietary paid software!).
It's just as tiring to hear "Linux is unusable, it can't run X". For you maybe it can't work but it can work for a lot more than just coders.
Honestly I feel like desktop Linux market share would be a whole lot larger if the defacto office suite wasn't owned by the biggest OS maker...
Yup. I'm stuck at using Visual Studio (not Vscode) for a legacy codebase for work and it's the only reason that I still have to use Windows (though thankfully, in a VM) that doesn't work properly on Mono-rebranded-as-Visual-Studio-which-isnt-the-same-thing.
I'm a Mac user and can't even consider switching to Linux (eventhough I like it) as I use Photoshop, After Effects, Sketch, Logic Pro which anyone would probably agree that they are unmatched.
Anyone who can completely be on Linux are probably people who don't need ANYTHING other than open source software/terminals/code editors etc. which is much less in percentage (but overlapping with the demographics of here a lot).
These threads are pretty pointless as it is, but if we avoid mentioning the only solution that exists and how to do that, switching to Linux, then the thread is literally just a bunch of complaining
Switching to Linux is obviously not the only solution - and somehow trying to argue that it’s the case is not only ignorant - but straight-up what my core issue is with Linux evangelism.
There is such a lack of consideration for the average end-user - who would never deal with the layers that come with a Linux distro in the evangelical Linux community - it seriously drives me crazy sometimes.
Like - the only solution? …
There is an entire other OS and ecosystem called MacOS, that doesn’t have these issues like built-in advertising - allows for natively running the proprietary software most people need without some weird translation layer in between - and if you don’t like that - there are ways to tweak Windows into being semi-sorta-not-really-but-whatever level acceptable. It even runs most Linux software, to boot.
Almost like it’s the best of all worlds, or something.
And if you want to bitch about the proprietary hardware ‘needed’ for MacOS - to be frank - in about 15 years or so of playing with both Hackintoshes and various Linux distributions…I honestly found them to be about equal in terms of hardware support and annoyance of configuration.
In the last 4-5 years I’ve actually had better luck with plug and play hardware support on Hackintoshes.
(It’s amazing how fantastic that community is! Most of my computers are totally plug and play. My 80-year-old grandma did it last year, first try - after trying and failing several times with Ubuntu, on her bog-standard Dell tower…)
So, point in case - is the average person supposed to go fishing around for drivers or go out to purchase specific hardware so it works with their Linux distribution?
Do they want to dig through package managers to find whatever alternatives exist to the software they need and already know how to use?
Obviously not, and; no. :P
So is Linux even a ‘solution’ at all for at least 80% of people who don’t even get what a ‘driver’ is? Of course not!
So it certainly can’t be the ‘only’ solution.
Even convincing the average Windows user to go over to MacOS - even if you hand them a Mac - is pretty tough, honestly. (Speaking from experience…)
I’d never, nor have I ever - recommend(ed) any Linux distribution to anyone who wasn’t a serious techie.
Heck, I don’t recommend it in general, unless you’re lucky enough to be a programmer who doesn’t have to work on proprietary systems, and are dual-booting alongside an OS that can natively run the proprietary software 90% of people rely on and already know how to use.
If you’re curious and tech-savvy - of course - go for it!
I’ve recommended dual-booting to a few techie friends, and I have nothing against Linux - honesty except for the people who are blindly evangelical about it and forget about the real people in the world who aren’t techies.
For the average person - Linux is a perfect case of ‘free isn’t free’.
An aside:
You know what is likeliest to replace Windows, which sucks balls? Android. Because honestly, other than the built-in ads, on a default installation, with telemetry enabled, it would be tough to tell which OS is worse for your privacy.
I’d be curious to see a highly technical comparison on that!
You have a strange bias against Linux. I've convinced many non tech people to install Ubuntu and Mint without trouble. My grandma literally uses Fedora that I installed for her. During all these installations, it just worked; there was no driver issue to fix on any machine. In my experience talking to others, going from windows to OSX is infinitely more jarring than going to Linux (Cinnamon). I also think you're overestimating how many people need proprietary Windows software, by a lot.
If you're stuck on Windows, that sucks, but switching OS is the only solution to a hostile OS. You can tweak Windows however you want; it is still going to push updates that ignore your wishes and annoy you. We shouldn't stop recommending the best solution because you personally can't switch.
I agree, but I only have windows machines as exclusive gaming boxes.
No password on login, no web browsing period, no access to NAS/media/files, no cloud access etc. just has windows and steam/various launchers and peripheral software.
I’m are things like proton exist, but there are a million issues with gaming on Linux that I don’t feel like writing a book about in the comment section. Maybe in a few more years…
It's for the better, I think. Everybody gets so concerned about privacy and then gives Valve a blank check with the Steam launcher.
I almost prefer having it on an isolated system, along with the various other game launchers.
I also wish I didn't have to use it to buy games, but it seems like any/most PC games are available only through Steam, or some equivalently distasteful proprietary launcher/platform/portal thing.
Microsoft has a long standing reputation for bundling crap and bloat its OS, while doing whatever-telemetry and harder to catch as the author of the OS itself.
Valve and Steam has a much better reputation for now, and is respected by many players. I'm not saying it's perfect but at least it's loved by players whereas Microsoft/Windows is more into the hated category, for good well-deserved reasons.
I'm using Windows 11 since a few months, been using Windows 10 before, and Windows 7 before that.
The prompt in question comes up exactly once, when using Edge to download Chrome/Firefox. Then there is only one additional prompt when you set your default browser to Chrome/Firefox.
After that, Windows gives up and shuts up. Even if you update it, it won't bug you again, ever. At least I have never seen that prompt come up a second time since then.
I'm using Windows 11 pro though, it might be that the consumer versions (home, educational, whatever they're called) are different in that regard
The DevDiv (or whatever they are called) people are very visible and accessible at Microsoft. "This is our vision for the product", "This is why we make this change" etc. Even people who implement individual features can let people know in advance. Have dialog on Twitter about an upcoming change to a .NET api or a VS feature.
I'd like to see Microsoft be open with that sort of thing for Windows. I'd like to see the people who make these decisions. I'd like to hear their motivations.
Unfortunately the European Commission is always playing catch up (when it even tries) and it takes 10 years in court to get a fine enforced (if it's not struck down).
I recently bought a Windows laptop for gaming (the only reason to still get one imo). The first thing I installed was a network inspection tool and proceeded to spend the next 3 hours trying to get back some control of my computer by:
* Blocking network access for many processes (Windows Defender Smart Screen, GamingServices, Search etc). The latter sends all your search queries to bing
* Fiddling with telemetry & privacy settings
After uninstalling Edge I still find places where functionality is broken because the OS doesn't respect the default browser setting.
> I still find places where functionality is broken
Windows uses Edge for webviews, you shouldn't uninstall Edge if you want these webview.
While yes, using webviews to render things is awful, you shouldn't uninstall edge, it's like uninstalling librairies then complain about how things stop working.
I haven't taken the chance to dig into Win11 to know, but before Edge? Internet Explorer was bundled with Windows' Widget Kit. Uninstalling IE would break how applications would present to the user.
Microsoft makes very weird, deeply hurtful decisions, at a depth very few people understand.
> Uninstalling IE would break how applications would present to the user.
It makes sense for developers to use the native html renderer when they don’t want to have to include a big binary blob (Electron/CEF) to do so in their application.
Their decisions are easy to understand if you understand the motivations of the company. Which is not to please end user consumers buying retail consumer computers
Bit surprised no one mentioned using the LTSC releases of Windows. They're absolutely barebones (no clock/news/weather, media codecs need manual install) but apparently significantly faster and less bloated, and they boot faster too. The only catch is I'm not sure how you can get one unless you're fond of the deep seas.
I'm pretty sure you can use LTSC editions if you have the Microsoft Action Pack. You can definitely get the Enterprise edition (I use it, and there are no ads).
I forget how much it costs, something like $350/year from memory, but it's a no-brainer if you are developing for Windows, as you get access to loads of software, including Visual Studio, Office, something like 10x Windows desktop licenses and 5x server licenses, $100/m Azure credits etc.
I tried out the latest one and it was actually pretty crap. The telemetry settings were the same as regular windows (no off setting), the same crapware was installed like the Windows store, microsoft accounts, news applets etc...
I think the only thing it still has going for it is that it doesn't really change all the time. Oh and you can probably still install updates whenever you actually want to, because it's meant for production systems.
The old LTSB of Windows 7 was indeed a really nice, light and no-frills windows release but LTSC has become almost the same turd that Windows 10 has :(
It takes hours to finish, but tron script [1] automates at least some of what you did. It does however use kasperky for some tasks, so up to you whether you want to turn those bits off.
They could've had e.g. "Windows Fresh" campaign/symbol for vendors to use if it was an unmodified Windows. But there's likely no incentive. It cuts into OEM profit, and maybe it would reduce support calls?
Ultimately though, most people don't care. And the ones that do simply reinstall Windows on a new PC, because it's quicker that way.
Microsoft hates McAfee and the other malware packages, because they know full well how badly they screw up all sorts of internal workings of Windows. Much of Microsoft's own tech support workload is caused by shitty antiviruses. The reason Microsoft made Security Essentials / Defender was to deal with that, to displace the others and reduce Microsoft's own support workload.
Candy Crush isn't anything like that, it doesn't screw up OS functionality. (Well, subjectively, you might consider ads and upsells in the UI broken.)
Is that surprising to anyone at this point? Big companies have proven times and times again that they absolutely can treat their customers the way they do. Whining won't cut it. Spill all the shit you can on Windows, people still won't stop using their only daily driver.
More shocking posts about bad Windows and predictable comments about Linux to the entropy god.
Microsoft used to be far less abusive than this. You installed it and it would just stay silent. I think things changed starting around Windows 8, then got much worse with 10, and the trend continues with 11.
Unfortunately that's a business decision, not a testament to the greatness of Edge. The different browsers and properties of the PC constitute a "security level" in the DRM module, and Netflix ties its offerings to the different security levels. You could say that with IE, you have the least control over your Netflix stream and that's why they let you play their content in 4k.
Nevertheless, Edge could be a good browser otherwise. What I wanted to point out is only the point about 4k Netflix.
Still better than standard Chrome, which if I understand correctly cannot implement any vertical tabs because of the lack of side pane. But yes, the killer feature of TST is the tree function.
Has anyone done a rigorous comparison between the on-by-default telemetry in Chrome, Edge, and Firefox? Since they all have it and all use similar words, I'm curious what the differences really are (outside of ideological preference for who gets your data).
To be fair it's pretty much indistinguishable from Chrome. To test this point I'm using it now for almost the first time. Aside from a few minor tweaks it really looks like a copy/paste of Chrome. Maybe there's stuff under the hood that i'm missing, but i really don't care.
Chrome was great but they still bundled it with Java and other installers back in the day to increase adoption. I think you'd be surprised how well shoving things down a non-technical person's throat works.
I don't even care at this point. I used to advocate for Firefox and Chrome on Windows platform but it just seems silly to try to force Microsoft's hand to make their platform neutral to competitors. It's like walking into a Ford Dealership wanting them to support Toyota Trucks. The better choice is to leave Windows. Mac, Chromebook and Linux a all very good options.
Nah. Does Android complain if you switch the default browser away from Chrome?
I wouldn't complain about favoring Edge by just having it pre-set as the default when you install Windows. That's fine and reasonable to me, you want some kind of default browser anyway, if nothing else, to install other browsers.
But the OS complaining about it when you switch is stupid. Whereas you can argue that having some kind of browser built into the OS is a reasonable necessity for user convenience -- and you could argue this for other app types too, like image viewers and video players -- having the OS try to convince users to not switch is explicitly anti-competitive.
it just seems silly to try to force Microsoft's hand to make their platform neutral to competitors.
Many places have laws, under headlines like "monopolies" or "anti-competitive behaviour", that have evolved precisely because of the danger of allowing a business entity that has achieved a dominant position in one market to exploit that position to gain an unfair advantage in another market (even if the former position was achieved entirely on merit).
Many places have evolved a regulatory environment for services, particularly those considered essential, where commercial providers of those services are restricted from freely performing certain acts that would harm a user of their services even if it makes business sense to do that.
We evolved these rules because there is a huge imbalance of power in these situations and we learned from experience that allowing the big guy to exploit that imbalance to the detriment of the little guy is bad for society.
The need to apply similar principles to modern technologies and communications services is abundantly clear. The legislators and regulators are just a decade or two behind the technology, as so often happens. Now we're starting to see the pendulum swing back and it will probably go too far the other way, with technologically illiterate political appointees seeing potential power and/or revenue that can be generated from applying heavy-handed control to the big tech firms and doing their own kind of damage to the societies they supposedly serve. Witness the current wave of laws and regulatory actions in basically everywhere in the West that isn't the USA.
I think a more appropriate analogy is you have a Ford car, and you tell the GPS system to navigate you to a Toyota dealership. Instead of doing that, it prompts you multiple times if you really want to go to a Ford dealership instead.
The last time I installed Windows 10 and then downloaded all the updates, the default behavior was simply to block the download of any .exe files. This includes Firefox & Chrome, so I didn't run into this issue at all. I just couldn't download any executable files.
After navigating a few mazes of menus I was able to disable all this behavior.
I don't understand how this kind of petulant child behavior isn't the first topic for any journalist in contact with a Microsoft representative for any reason. It's as if Jeff Bezos was walking around with his weiner hanging out but somehow only got asked questions about Amazon's fourth quarter numbers.
Probably because if they offend them too much they lose access to review samples, representatives, previews, events etc. which puts them a curve behind competitors that play nice so they get less clicks after the initial story.
I never really understood the parable of "The Emperor's New Clothes" until the last few years, but at the deepest level it's about the ability for the powerful to create their own reality and enforce it on others. When do you think Bezos last heard the word "no" in relation to any question he's had?
This is probably an urban legend but I read somewhere that when Jeff Bezos uses Amazon, behind the scenes it actually routes him to a separate special instance that has all his feature requests in it, so nobody has to say “no” to him.
It’s just believable enough that I remember it. The higher up on the corporate ladder one is, the less possible it is to tell him “no.”
Whenever I use Edge to open my Gmail account, Google puts in a popup to switch to Chrome. I realize Gmail is a Google product, but I still find it annoying, because I have chosen Edge. I have to see how to turn off this notification.
On Android if you disable the youtube app then apps like messages start complaining with popups if you receive a youtube link "you need to enable the youtube app in order for this app to work correctly"
On my pixel youtube links also open in the browser but still there is a popup every time I open a chat in messages that contains a youtube link. I literally go and delete the youtube links people have sent me to stop it.
Just today i took the initiative to replace windows 11 with ubuntu on my laptop. Turns out there is a touchpad bug under wayland/gnome which makes it almost impossible to “two finger” scroll (it’s way too fast). There are plenty of bug reports, but no fix in sight. There are some workarounds, but they bring their own problems.
2h later i was back on windows 10 (yes 10, not 11), and wsl…
Which laptop? Is it just with Ubuntu? You know there are other options, right? You don't have to give up on your rights and dignity because of one tiny hiccup.
I'm happy to use Edge on my Windows machine, because the browser works really well.
But... if I ever notice that Microsoft changes my Edge privacy settings behind my back then I will ditch it in a second for Firefox, and never go back.
And I'm genuinely curious if just me deciding to use Edge is enough to make Microsoft happy.
Also, what happens if you try to install Chrome, or Vivaldi, or some other browser?
This is exactly the reason why I dislike Microsoft. Their products and services are okay, and they are more than successful already without engaging in these shady scare tactics with their users.
The fact that they can't see that is very worrying because it indicates a higher probably that they do/will engage in unethical behaviors to reassure themselves.
Take note of these anti-competitive practices, @mozilla and @firefox. Defend yourself. Your users' and customers' rights are being trampled upon. /cc @EFF
I play a couple games that only run on Windows, which I boot a few times a month. I'm not even mad. The feeling is more like sadness, remembering the XP days.
I've heard of that service before, but I don't personally trust it. As an alternative, you can just download the installers before reformatting. Personally, I keep a folder ready with up-to-date installers: any time a program updates on my current install, I copy the installer into a folder on my second hdd. Whenever I reformat, the folder on that secondary hdd is there ready to go.
That people accept this stuff is really beyond my understanding. You now need a third party's permission and a business relationship governed by a large pile of legalese in a jurisdiction that isn't yours in order to use a device that you bought and paid for.
There is some OEM version of Microsoft Windows that comes preinstalled on some computers, and if you create a local account instead of a 'Microsoft account' when setting up the machine then Windows will block you from installing any application that isn't in their app store. Two of my family members are now happy users of Ubuntu.
S mode is the name of this restricted variant. Comes on surface and low end devices mostly. You need to do the "add microsoft account, go to the microsoft store to leave S mode, go through what is effectively a OS reinstall, create local admin account, remove MS account" dance if you want to convert to a regular windows install from it.
Yeah, thinking about this from a business strategy perspective... it doesn't seem smart to lose an existing and future customer by handicapping a low end device. Especially when removing windows and installing linux restores the device to its full capability.
Can't you just format the hard drive without ever booting into what's on it out of the box and install one of those "lite" Windows builds from rutracker that ditch all the non-essential parts?
On the systems this applies to, probably not. There's not a keyboard shortcut to enter the UEFI and the reboot into UEFI from the OS option requires real local admin access which in turn requires you to leave S mode first.
this happens in english windows as well, it s not some local version. i just got a new laptop and noticed that MS has become a lot more aggressive: i couldn't complete install without logging in to some MS account and it kept chasing me with all those prompts when installing chrome.
Ok, I realize this is my fault for scrolling down in the comments in the dumpster fire that is Twitter. That being said, I have a question:
What's with the Mozilla Firefox being leftist/Communist propaganda thing? Is it a meme or flat out ignorance? It seems to based solely on their logo, which is ridiculous.
Might be the "If you're so smart, why aren't you rich?" syndrome in USA. Because Microsoft is very rich, some people will automatically side with it and think that people who oppose Microsoft must be losers (which is then equated with whatever is a loser in their mind).
https://www.technologyreview.com/2018/03/01/144958/if-youre-...
I think they're mad because Mozilla used imagery similar to old communist posters[1]? But I find so many inscrutable claims on Twitter that I generally just ignore them. A lot of them are either axe grinding from decades ago or strange culture war positions that make no sense unless you're already steeped in those communities.
I've used Windows nearly my entire life, save for brief dalliances with Kubuntu in my teens and Mac as an adult. Even though I'm happy to see that Microsoft is giving back more to open source than they were twenty years ago, I'm done with Windows as of this year. Between the loss of control, the advertisements, and the dark patterns, I can't stand using it anymore. Just picked up a System76 for my new daily driver and it's been a great experience.
Windows is racing to the bottom as fast as it can. It reeks of desperation.
Laptop, the Gazelle. My only complaint is that the keyboard makes too many sacrifices in order to fit in a full numpad, an inclusion that I find unnecessary (laptop keyboard designers, a full-sized right shift key is more important than full-sized up/down keys, and both are more important than a numpad!). Software-wise it's been great; Bluetooth works better on this than it did on Windows, and I only had to do minor configuration to get the UI to my taste (and it was quite easy).
Totally fine, I use the trackpad exclusively all day, with no external mouse. It's not as lusciously-buttery-waxy-smooth as my old Dell XPS, with the same sort of occasional rubbiness as my Macbook (though I'm sure someone will quickly appear to tell me why a PC can't possibly have a touchpad comparable to a Mac). Palm detection is flawless and multi-touch gestures support is miles ahead of Windows, with a friendly GUI for configuration that even works on a per-app basis so e.g. I can tell it to make three-finger-swipe-left pass Alt+Left when in Firefox. I don't like its pointer acceleration as much as Windows', but that's probably a matter of me not bothering to fiddle with it.
Well, it's true....you don't need Firefox...and Edge is better. In fact, now that they've switched to Chromium, it's better than Chrome
Anyway, Firefox is just a de facto Google subsidiary that's allowed to continue to exist to preserve the illusion of competition in the browser space, so who cares
