> Yes, Wayland has issues, many of which could have been addressed if people weren't conservative. Not that I begrudge them for it, I believe choice is good.
Them the developers should do something about it, instead of calling a comparatively crippled compositor complete. If choice is good, respect everyone who says x.org is better, instead of trying to scare drums or use vague words like “progress”. Progress towards what? Lower Linux satisfaction?
If you think I’m a troll because I refuse to lie about how the useless wayland is actually good and don’t engage in an encho chamber of praise, you need to listen to complaints and respect opinions of others. Your analogy is of it being a truck instead of a bike, it’s hard to take you seriously unless you’re trolling, that is unless it’s a plastic toy truck. You bring up nonexistent threats like Android not calling 911, and demonstrate it’s being a no threat, and an irrelevant threat.
Don’t joyfully call everyone to switch from fine software and enjoy their new crippled and child proof space progress and applause the broken userspace for the sake of scaling, slightly smoother movements and colored cursors. Respect other people who don’t like the same thing you do instead of calling them wrong. You wouldn’t do this to a sexual preference, not Thor compositor.
That you can't steal keystrokes from other programs?
Screensharing? (which is an adoption issue for clients, not a "problem" with Wayland)
Your X11 programs (not hacks) already work as if they were X11 with Xwayland, but it has the same drawbacks as running it natively with X11. (with a small bonus that it's rootless... unlike X11 which is assuredly not rootless by default).
Do you honestly believe that wayland developers should reimplement all software that has leveraged and abused the X11 system? Seems asinine, what are your _real needs_ that Wayland isn't providing support for?
You call it "hacks and abuses", but it's actually extensibility. Which Wayland kind of lacks (you need support for all of this in the compositor, rather than 3rd party processes being able to provide it).
> Do you honestly believe that wayland developers should reimplement all software that has leveraged and abused the X11 system?
Most definitely not, but what they should do is just to _allow_ the continued existence of all the software which has leveraged X11 in their garden, if the garden is to have any kind of success. And not as 2nd grade citizens.
The analogy is not correct, because in the case at hand, it is _by design_ that X11 allows this -- the entire "mechanism not policy" thing.
And the problem with "it's potentially dangerous" is that you can use it as justification for removing any feature, so much that it doesn't really have any meaning left.
X11 definitely wasn’t designed for this. It’s a byproduct of its (poor) design and the fact you can directly interfere with the renderer.
It’s the same as the c64 not protecting memory addresses so you can poke memory to fuck with the video output, which people did, but the c64 is not a good computing platform in the modern age almost because of this.
You might be better served by actually looking how X11 works, with quirks and what it was originally designed for, I promise you that your hair will stand on end.
I should note: “potentially dangerous” is seriously downplaying a genuine problem linux had with keyloggers- it just wasn’t overly common because Linux is not a big enough platform for trojans to target, but it was known to be easy. Hugely easy.
> You might be better served by actually looking how X11 works, with quirks and what it was originally designed for, I promise you that your hair will stand on end.
You are confusing things. Where can you "interfere" with the renderer? What you can do is _replace_ the renderer. This is one extension point Wayland _forces_ on you, so what is your complain exactly?
Manipulating things around using the ways provided for things to be manipulated is not a quirk. The server allows other processes to render to windows they don't own because this is how you implement decorations and the like. The server allows you to read the contents of windows you don't own because this is how you implement screen grabbers and color pickers. The server allows any two processes connected to it to communicate in any way because that is how clipboards and things like that are implemented. This is all by design.
And that is the problem. If all of this was still possible with Wayland (WITHOUT having to patch the compositor), I'm certain there won't be as many complains.
But no; they tried to fix "security" (for some definition of security) at the same time and thus had to spend a decade to see any hint of adoption. And face a lot of resistance.
At least fetch the UNIX haters handbook if you want to see a minimally valid criticism to X...
> but it was known to be easy. Hugely easy.
Still is. Wayland or not. Therefore: Yes, I will downplay this issue.
You would need an even more radical design to make it not trivial on Linux (e.g. passing individual input device descriptors to the process owning the focused window or the like, and then make each process a different user or god knows). Basically: something like Qubes (which used to do it with X11). And then face all the "it's not working!" complains because you break even more things.
Them the developers should do something about it, instead of calling a comparatively crippled compositor complete. If choice is good, respect everyone who says x.org is better, instead of trying to scare drums or use vague words like “progress”. Progress towards what? Lower Linux satisfaction?
If you think I’m a troll because I refuse to lie about how the useless wayland is actually good and don’t engage in an encho chamber of praise, you need to listen to complaints and respect opinions of others. Your analogy is of it being a truck instead of a bike, it’s hard to take you seriously unless you’re trolling, that is unless it’s a plastic toy truck. You bring up nonexistent threats like Android not calling 911, and demonstrate it’s being a no threat, and an irrelevant threat.
Don’t joyfully call everyone to switch from fine software and enjoy their new crippled and child proof space progress and applause the broken userspace for the sake of scaling, slightly smoother movements and colored cursors. Respect other people who don’t like the same thing you do instead of calling them wrong. You wouldn’t do this to a sexual preference, not Thor compositor.