> I was following the time honored HN tradition of posting one line about the article and then taking up a tangent.
I don't have too much of a problem with that, it's asking a question you should research first.
It's not that I don't want to talk about it either, I just don't want to explain the basics every time. I'm also not an expert on the issue, many people have much more to say on the matter.
If I could add something to what you've pointed out, I'd divide the reasons into two categories:
The second one worries me a lot more. We are talking about women who chose IT, who are trained, who made it. We are talking about a market where jobs and opportunities abound, where you can work from home, move anywhere you want. And yet so many women find this industry unbearable.
From personal experience, I can't contribute much to point 2, as the temptation of leaving is foreign to me, nor do I know women who left. Maybe it's a cultural thing - I live in Europe and while brogrammers exist here, I have no problem finding good and respectful teams. I have worked for startups without staying late and yet got promoted to team leader. I have encountered sexism, but I also have been treated better because of my gender.
I have struggled with getting into IT, and my biggest obstacle was my lack of self-confidence. This is by no means reserved to girls, but we do hear the "girls suck at math", we see boys dominating math contests or math-oriented high schools, and it leaves a mark. Here's another good article: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-science-success/... The takeaway is that since girls are praised for results and boys for effort, "bright girls believe that their abilities are innate and unchangeable, while bright boys believe that they can develop ability through effort and practice", a vicious circle.
Still personal, but not limited to me: neurodiversity. Girls are far more often undiagnozed for ADHD and autism. We cause less trouble, we get less understanding for not behaving accordingly to society's norms. Life without diagnosis was one without help and resources to deal with my symptoms. Instead, I was told my problems were my character flaws, which left little of my self-esteem. When you don't believe you can do it, you don't try yet another solution, you don't search yet another query, but you buy into the narratives mentioned above: your gender leaves you at a disadvantage and always will, you got As because you were gifted but this is how far your talents go, clearly, you're not made for this.
> girls are praised for results and boys for effort
This is a sad thing, if true. If true, it does sound very changeable. From the article you linked:
> bright girls believe that their abilities are innate and unchangeable, while bright boys believe that they can develop ability through effort and practice.
Everyone should learn somehow that effort and practice bring about change in behavior and improvement in skill level. It's the only thing that has brought me much level of success, other than birth.
> Changing it in entire societies will take time, but there is talk about "growth mindset" vs "fixed mindset".
I am glad that things are changing, and rather disappointed/frustrated/annoyed that at this point in time it's still a problem. How can we as a society not instil in everyone a deep-seated belief in, respect for, and love of practice? Am I nuts or is that not so much to expect?
I don't have too much of a problem with that, it's asking a question you should research first.
It's not that I don't want to talk about it either, I just don't want to explain the basics every time. I'm also not an expert on the issue, many people have much more to say on the matter.
If I could add something to what you've pointed out, I'd divide the reasons into two categories:
1. Why women don't go into IT
2. Why women leave - and boy do they: "Women are more than twice as likely to quit the tech industry as men (41% vs 17%)" per https://medium.com/tech-diversity-files/the-real-reason-wome...
The second one worries me a lot more. We are talking about women who chose IT, who are trained, who made it. We are talking about a market where jobs and opportunities abound, where you can work from home, move anywhere you want. And yet so many women find this industry unbearable.
From personal experience, I can't contribute much to point 2, as the temptation of leaving is foreign to me, nor do I know women who left. Maybe it's a cultural thing - I live in Europe and while brogrammers exist here, I have no problem finding good and respectful teams. I have worked for startups without staying late and yet got promoted to team leader. I have encountered sexism, but I also have been treated better because of my gender.
I have struggled with getting into IT, and my biggest obstacle was my lack of self-confidence. This is by no means reserved to girls, but we do hear the "girls suck at math", we see boys dominating math contests or math-oriented high schools, and it leaves a mark. Here's another good article: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-science-success/... The takeaway is that since girls are praised for results and boys for effort, "bright girls believe that their abilities are innate and unchangeable, while bright boys believe that they can develop ability through effort and practice", a vicious circle.
Still personal, but not limited to me: neurodiversity. Girls are far more often undiagnozed for ADHD and autism. We cause less trouble, we get less understanding for not behaving accordingly to society's norms. Life without diagnosis was one without help and resources to deal with my symptoms. Instead, I was told my problems were my character flaws, which left little of my self-esteem. When you don't believe you can do it, you don't try yet another solution, you don't search yet another query, but you buy into the narratives mentioned above: your gender leaves you at a disadvantage and always will, you got As because you were gifted but this is how far your talents go, clearly, you're not made for this.