High cost of living areas benefit SWEs and other in-demand professionals. I imagine they aren’t as good as mid-sized cities for commodity careers due to the cost of living.

Disclaimer here: I don’t know anything about London. And I won’t talk about Brexit, that’s a separate and important consideration.

The higher salary will almost certainly make up for the cost of living.

You just need to do the math. The information is readily available. Find salary information for your role and experience level, and then jump on real estate websites and find out how much rentals costs near some of those employees.

I thought San Francisco was crazy until I did the math. Sure, the rent is $5000 a month or higher, but that’s only $48k a year more than a $1000 a month apartment in the Midwest United States. But you’re looking at a salary difference of over $100k, maybe even $200k, and all that extra money means extra savings that could be taken to a cheaper city when you retire, or help you retire faster.

Not only that, but everything that comes from a factory, and things like plane tickets all stay the same price while your salary is way higher.

I personally think going from a mid-size city to a larger one is appealing. Larger cities have more things to do, more ways to explore niche interests, and better transit.

There are downsides but I think some adjustment is all you need. For one, you have to take your personal belongings seriously. If you have a suburban habit of storing a bunch of stuff you don’t need, you will need to change that. If you can learn to live in a smaller space and enjoy it that’ll go really far in allowing you to benefit from the extra salary without throwing it all away on housing.

Except the salaries in Europe, nowhere in Europe can even come close to such a staggering difference like those in SF or NYC.

There just is not that kind of money in circulation for SWE.

I even doubt one can get $130k in London.SWEs in London are not competing with other SWEs. They are competing with bankers and similar.

Historically it seems that the highest paid developers in London have been contractors, who can charge £600 ($780) / day for fairly non-niche skills in web-development.

IR35 may change the incentives for employers enough that that kind of money is more likely to be paid in salary form. We're now seeing senior developer salaries being advertised as high as £90k - £100k ($130k). Again, for in demand but non-niche skills (Ruby, React, full-stack JS etc).

I'm sure London won't be seeing SF or NYC level salaries, but you can definitely live comfortably in London on a software engineer's salary.

110-120K GBP base is pretty standard for SWE's with 2-5 years experience in the financial sector and fang, heck 100K base isn't exactly impossible to get these days even outside of London in places like Manchester and Bristol.

Overall your total comp can get well beyond 150-160K GBP these days, that's including the 15-20% cash bonus, and the circa 20% pension large companies award today + other benefits.

> I even doubt one can get $130k in London.SWEs in London are not competing with other SWEs. They are competing with bankers and similar.

It's certainly harder than in, say, SF, but by no means impossible. Google and Facebook between them have thousands of engineers in London and are growing fast. They're not paying as much as the US, but are by no means stingy. £100k ($130k) is not unrealistic.

If you want some anecdotal data, I transferred from the Bay Area to London and my base salary decreased about 25%. But then again, a nice one-bed apartment in London can easily be easily found for $2k...try finding that in SF.

> £100k ($130k) is not unrealistic.

Yet I work in a a medium-to-low COL area of the US and make more than that. My area is in the high 80's while NYC is 162 and SF is 206.

It's hard to argue in favor of being a SWE in London if being a SWE in the US is a possibility in any locale.

What about SWEs at financial companies? I know in NY that’s where a lot of the most lucrative positions are.

The view I have in memory of London are trains full of commuters from the outer villages, most standing and all seating places taken. Paying an absurd share of their salaries on this bloody train tickets. You could be more lucky in finding an extraordinarily well paid job and simultanously an affordable (in London terms) housing nearby, but yeah... good luck.

There seem to be only two locations in Europe where software engineering pays reasonable money: London, and Zurich. See https://www.itjobswatch.co.uk to get an idea of salaries.

London has lots of downsides, but you can expect a reasonable career.

Also if you have aspirations to move to the USA, you can work for a FAANG company and then get a transfer to a US office in a few years on an L1 visa.

This is now the only practical way to get into the US to work since the H1B visa system is completely broken.

> pays reasonable money

what are you comparing ? the number on your payslip or quality of life with the same salary ?

Both London and Zurich are extremely expensive.

There are plenty of good software engineering jobs in London (with higher salaries to offset the higher cost of living), but if I were you I’d wait until the dust has settled from Brexit before you decide whether you really want to move here. Some of my London friends are making the move in the opposite direction.

> I’d wait until the dust has settled from Brexit

Even in the best case scenario it will be years before you can consider Brexit settled in any way.

If your only concern is making money then yes, you can make a lot there. Otherwise no: (IMHO) overpopulated, more insecure every day, expensive, bureaucracy, not so good transport, Brexit, potentially devaluated currency in the near future, no proper food culture, weather and then other personal subjective reasons that I wouldn't write here.

On a side note, I'd suggest to look for something else than money unless you have a very specific project or reason in mind. I made the mistake of taking a job because of the high compensation and benefits on a different country and made me miserable because everything else wasn't worth it - not even the job. Choose wisely, as you'll be the one living it and not us.

I'd disagree with a lot of the points you raise (apart from brexit, potentially devalued currency and our goddamn weather).

Particularly food, it very much depends what you mean by "food culture" and whether you're thinking of "english food" but London has a lot of fantastic restaurants of all types.

> not so good transport

That’s not been my experience. Which place(s) are you comparing London’s transport to?

> expensive, bureaucracy, not so good transport

Compared to where exactly?

London is about to experience two things: Brexit, and the private sector reform of IR35 legislation (for contract work). Both will affect the job market there.

Arguably the latter will be felt worse in the coming months, as Brexit has already been accounted for by many companies.

The economic calamity of Brexit won't be felt until 2021 when the borders are shut to foreigners and the free trade market. That's when the collapse starts.

London is expensive as you remember, but salaries are high to offset that somewhat. There is a booming tech and fintech market in London too so I think your skills are in demand. It could be a good move for a few years, but that depends on your long-term plans.

Salary/Cost of living ratio is not that good.

Where is better? Genuinely interested as it may inform my next move!

I did this - moved from Western Europe to London a couple of years ago as a SWE.

Initial compensation was a bit more than before but expenses were much higher (back than I was in doubt where I made the right decision).

Now I'm making much(!!!) more than when I moved here, and life is great. Other countries (except Switzerland) won't be able to pay salaries as high as you'll get in London.

I can't imagine why any European would want to live in this stupid country under brexit and the current government.

As hard as it may to conceive for some people on the political spectrum in the UK, the UK is still some of the better European countries.

Depending on what sort of Software you want to work on, consider Cambridge (UK). There is a busy tech sector in what is called 'Silicon Fen', but leans a little more towards embedded and hardware rather than web.

salaries are appallingly low and it is quite expensive too.

UK's at the verge of Brexit and my hunch is things like immigration are going to be super messy for years to come. Just a heads up.

But not for the next year, so this is good time to move.

> But not for the next year

What do you mean? The exit date is the end of Jan 2020

The leave will be formalised, but it won't become completely effective till they will agree on the new trade rules; until then it will act economically as if it were part of EU.

London itself has a pretty large range for living expenses. Zone 1 is going to be far more expensive for almost everything including even your groceries. If you are willing to commute a little on the tube, your rent and other expenses can be a lot lower. So it's not an easy question to answer because a lot depends on the specifics of what you want.

At least in the US, for me Silicon Valley was only "worth it" as a young, single, professional.

Once I met my spouse and started having kids, Silicon Valley became way too expensive.

If you're young, and have no spouse or kids, the experience alone might be "worth it," even if you have to live in a tiny apartment and only stay in London for a short time.

If you are going to expatriate, come to bay area. Sorry for this unsolicited advice, but life as a swe is much better here.

One does not get a work visa for the US so easily.

Ha ! Unfortunately it's not. Otherwise it would be my top choice :)

How about google/fb/etc london and getting l1 visa to come to usa after 1st year...

If you plan to undertake any consulting / contracting opportunities have a look at IR35 - it's about to be introduced in April and will most possibly cause a lot of turmoil in London's tech sector. Might be worth to consider this when making a decision.

>If you plan to undertake any consulting / contracting opportunities have a look at IR35 - it's about to be introduced in April

You seem to have miscalculated the introduction of IR35 by two decades. It came into force in April 2000.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IR35

This April the laws are changing so that they strongly incentivise companies who hire contractors to get them inside IR35. Prior to that, IR35 was mostly only observed by government agencies.

IR35 is being reformed in April 2020. It is not a new law, as I have pointed out to the previous poster. There are no radical changes to: a) either create a new law or b) morph it into creating another law, which is completely unrecognisable from it's current form. Your claim that it is currently ONLY being observed by 'government agencies' is not accurate. Furthermore, your reading of this reform being pushed as some form of incentive is incorrect.

In the interest of providing impartial advice to the author of this thread; it would be extremely wise to seek professional advice before embarking on this route, as the conditions of employment under IR35 are complex and subjective.

https://www.contractoruk.com/private_sector_ir35_reform/empl...

You should really compare it directly to your other options. I recently moved to London from the north of England and was also somewhat reluctant at first exactly because of the higher cost and possibly lower quality of life.

Hi guys, can I also ask in general is it hard to find a programming job in London now?

My Background: a javascript (node/react) dev with 2 yrs of exp, a EU(portugal) passport holder living in Hong Kong

There is plenty of work here atm. Excellent contract rates for good quality node and react developers

If you don't mind me asking, why would you want to move to London? Are you looking for more opportunities, or a better salary?

As someone who's living and working in HK as a SWE, you can definitely get a much better salary here in HK if you're fairly experienced. Carreer opportunities are limited tho, because none of the FAANG companies have engineering offices here.

Basically I just want to go somewhere to start fresh... not really career prospect/salary motivated.

London looks a good option to me because its english-speaking, I have relatives living there, I can work there visa-free (now its complicated due to brexit), and I love english football haha.

That makes sense, gotta go for what makes you happy.

Facebook has an engineering office in London.

Why say so, I never claimed they didn't. I said Hong Kong doesn't have engineering offices for FAANG companies.

Curious about living and working in HK with an EU passport. Am german myself. Did you apply from overseas or have been living in hk before.

Haha I am a local Hong Konger. My father was born in Macau so I have a portugal passport.

Alright man, thanks :)

No. If you’re good then there’s lots of demand.

i used to work in London and live in Cambridgeshire area. the salaries are not that good compared to the extremely high cost of living. I moved to Scotland as the cost of living to earning ratio is much better

The UK is Western Europe...

Yes I'm well aware of that fact. I should have been more specific and said continental western europe.

...well...why not just say, I'm from "Bratislava/Slovakia" and want to move to "London/UK". Or simply "Budapest‎" and want to move to "London". Be proud of your home country bruv!

Not for long

After Brexit are they going to move the island like in Lost?

That would be a great idea actually. I love London but not so much its weather so I'm thinking we should have it moved in the Mediterranean Sea

Hilarious!

EU != Europe ;)

no

yes

maybe