Yes...naturally breed them and let genes modify in accordance of naturality. It is intellectually dishonest to compare that with an educated guessing game of modifying select genes and hoping it turns out OK. The very obvious difference being humans selected which genes to modify with gene editing while selective breeding allowed the reproductive process to select which combination of genes are passed and which are not.
The obvious ethical objection is that human error can happen with gene editing and is intolerable while selective breeding allows for the reproductive system to make errors which are not a responsibility of man but of nature.
> The obvious ethical objection is that human error can happen with gene editing and is intolerable while selective breeding allows for the reproductive system to make errors which are not a responsibility of man but of nature.
It seems like you're saying, either way you can get errors, but if you do it through breeding you can claim it wasn't your fault because, really, Nature did it.
I don't know how accurate it is, but I remember reading that (the first time was a very long time ago) some varieties of plants/crops were developed through literally bombarding them with radiation and then breeding the mutants that were improved, and the results are not considered to be GMOs, because nobody was manipulating specific genes. They were just basically firing a shotgun at them.
> For example, a mutagenic Ruby Red grapefruit grown without the use of pesticides can be labeled as organic and thus be sold for a premium, despite the fact that organic foods by definition cannot be genetically modified.
I can accept that. Living things have a natural process of eliminating incompatible variants. I think of it as a coder binary patching bugs without understanding how the patched piece affects every other variable essentially creating more problems as opposed to readinf the code and rebuilding the app after understanding it slowly and properly. What is the rush??
I honestly think scientists and science enthusiasts do not understand the most basic principle of justice: you cannot wrong even one innocent person evem if it means saving the entire planet as a whole! If you don't belive that please stay away from any profession that requires ethical decision making.
Ethical decision making and being in a position where being unethical can easily cause tragedies and jail time for you is different. I specifically meant right and wrong. Many jobs are simple enough to where you can follow the law and company guidelines and be ok.
Good example: truck driver, they have a ton of rules for everything due to how easily a simple mishap like not sleeping enough can get a person killed. They don't need to know much (if any) about ethics they just need to follow the law and rules.
Scientists,archaeologists,politicians and other professions involve new concepts and discoveries for which existing law and rules do not have coverage and as such require the professionals to know and excercise ethics in a consistent and acceptable way.
After that truck driver hit Tracy Morgan, it was reported that Wal-Mart made a new rule requiring drivers to live within 250 miles of where they go to work. Guess the rules weren't perfect.
So which category does police officer fit in? They sure have a ton of rules and they shouldn't be forging new laws, right?
The rules may not be perfect but they can adopt to imperfections. Practitioners are not expected to do things not required by law.
Police officers and soldiers are interesting in that they are expected to behave ethically even for things that there is no specific rule for. Police are much more lenient on their own so in reality inappropriate or unethical behavior has no consequence with soldiers it depends, do something inhumane to a POW, maybe nobody cares, associate with criminals and cheat(sexually) with other soldiers partners then even if there is no rule you might get discharged 'dishonorably' (they are expected to be honorable which often implies ethics). Cops might also run into situations where what is happening is legal but inaction might reasonably result in harm, so I think the ethical thing is to break the law and face consequences. They might also see something illegal (like other cops' crimes) and it might be legal to overlook that but unethical still. The key here is they are both given much power and leeway,they are expected to behave in a way that reflects the trust which includes ethical and honorable behavior.
In your truck driver scenario, the truck driver either did kr did not break the rules. Was it unethical if he lived far away? For him, no. For management that perhaps knowing the risks allowed the practice then they might have been unethical.
I am serious and that is what I am saying. Nature has plenty of errors,the benefits of gene editing do not justify even one person being harmed as a result if human added error. If selective human breeding is unethical (eugenics) then so is selective human gene editing!
Who said anything about human gene editing? We're talking about animals and plants.
> I am serious and that is what I am saying.
I think we must not be on the same page, still. You said: "The obvious ethical objection is that human error can happen with gene editing and is intolerable while selective breeding allows for the reproductive system to make errors which are not a responsibility of man but of nature." That sounds like you're saying that, if I genetically modify a cow for more milk production and it turns out that the milk gives you cancer, then of course I am to blame; but if I instead breed cows for more milk production and get exactly the same result, then it not's me at fault but Nature. Even though I'm the one who put a new product in stores without sufficient testing that made people sick, I'm not to blame at all in the second case.
It is more intolerable with humans but animals should't be subject of either (animal cruelty).
Yes, that is what I am saying. In your example, of course if there were tests you could have done to prevent the outcome you're at fault. But that aside, the outcome is the same but human editing of a gene means you are causing a specific change in a complicated code bypassing natural adaptations and rejections that might be needed for a trait to be amplified. So you're responsible for the outcome even if there was no testing you could have done to ensure it won't cause cancer on some consumers. You are responsible for any deviations caused by your editing,good or bad. With selective breeding you are forcing breeding between animals that would have bred anyways. It is not impossible for the natural course of things to force breeding between those same pairs of animals. The outcome is the same but since you did not do something that could not have happened anyways in the natural course of things you are not responsible for all deviations.
What I meant though was more like deformations and other flaws that would be cruel to the animal. For example selective breeding of dogs has resulted in some breeds where the brees itself is illegal. Some breeds have skulls that become torturesome and painful once the brain grows to a full size. These breeds would die off if it were not for humans that insist on breeding them.
Mistakes are inevitable and az such the question of "is even one mistake acceptable?" must be asked to which I say no it is not. Trial and error are not acceptable because one error is not acceptable. Ends don't justify means.
Maybe someday computing will be powerful enough to model how editing of genetic material will affect the grown animal (100% accounting of unintended consequences).
> Trial and error are not acceptable because one error is not acceptable
Trial and error is exactly what evolution is. I'm struggling to understand your argument - is it that evolution, once it makes a mistake, culls that line? Whereas when humans make a mistake (based on your dog breed example), they continue it?
Evolution continues its trial and error even after mistakes are made. There's no central database that limits this -- it continues to happen, again and again, with the same mutations.
We're not discussing evolution. You're changing the subject.
As human beings we recognize our ability to discern right from from wrong, just from unjust,cruel from humane and correct from incorrect. Knowing there is a risk of something incorrect that will result in an unjust,cruel and inhumane outcome, if you proceed with that action you are considered unethical. If the same outcome happens as a result of nature, other humans or by choice of the person/animal then it was not your decision or responsibility. The fact that other actors or nature might cause the same outcome does not absolve you of the decisions you make right?
I disagree that humans have an ability to differentiate right from wrong in any universal sense.
> Knowing there is a risk of something incorrect that will result in an unjust,cruel and inhumane outcome, if you proceed with that action you are considered unethical.
I also disagree here. Unethical negligence is determined by a calculated risk of the bad outcome. There is a risk of bad outcomes every time a jury takes a criminal case, but that it clearly not an unethical action.
I'm generally not sure what your point is. We take calculated risks that could end up with something bad happening -- think driverless cars -- but there is a lot of variance between individuals' line between "acceptable risk" and "unacceptable risk". And sometimes the ends do justify the means, depending on your opinion on the Trolley Problem.
Forced eugenics is obviously unethical but whats so bad about selective breeding in general as long as your going for intelligence, athleticism, musicality etc. and not country of origin.
The traits are irrelevant, you shouldn't group people by traits and say this group should never exist. Ethics aside too many unintended consequences.
If you breed for muscularity and athleticism everyone is physically fit but you no longer have smart people that spend most of their time studying. Too much intellect and you suddenly are in shortage of people that spend most of their time getting fit like firefighters and soldiers.
Ethically, there is this concept of self determination for humans, that our existence especially with flaws is what gives us individual traits. Previous generations should not amplify any trait on purpose because that implies we are bread for a purpose. We are not purpose built machines or animals, we get to decide what purpose suits us best which is individual self determination.
There is a difference though between a person finding a mate because they find a feature attractive (reproductive selection) and selecting a mate because that mate will amplify that feature in their offspring.
The obvious ethical objection is that human error can happen with gene editing and is intolerable while selective breeding allows for the reproductive system to make errors which are not a responsibility of man but of nature.
Ethical slippery sloping to justify ends sucks!