I like the taste of meat, I like the taste of eggs, texture of yogurt, I like the taste of practically all foods. I do not like the fact that cow, chicken, pig, dog, have to die for my tastebuds to feel nice.
Given that I like the tastes I like and do not want to give them up, I'll rather be calm and eat something that tastes like meat but there's no death of an animal.
That's it.
Could I live without veggie sausages, bruger patties? Yep. But why not eat them when they are available.
What I do not understand is the exclusivity of someone who eats meat. If people today are such foodies, what is wrong with ordering a vegan meal once? Or buying vegan meat replacements, to try them and see how they taste? Vegan mayo?
Why not exploit the luxury of the modern world and enjoy all that engineered food, even if you're vegan or not?
> Not only do they have to die, they also have to live. If everyone went vegan, those animals would never have existed.
In the same way, you could justify birthing a human into slavery, birthing a dog for dog fighting, birthing a bull for bullfighting etc. - it's not a good reason.
There's animals related to farm bred cows, pigs and chickens in the wild as well. You could use the land that's used for animal agriculture to let wild animals thrive, instead of birthing animals into a miserable life.
> If the standards of living for the average farm animal were really good, would that be worse than them having never existed?
I don't think there's enough land for this to ever be feasible and feed everyone that wants to eat meat.
You should also consider that farm animals are killed within around 20% or less into their natural lifespan so it's not like you'd be giving them much time to experience a great life. Also, for economical reasons, you'd probably still have to kill e.g. males from egg laying hens within a day or two, and male dairy calves within weeks.
> In the same way, you could justify birthing a human into slavery, birthing a dog for dog fighting, birthing a bull for bullfighting etc. - it's not a good reason.
You misread. The premise is that they will live a good life, whatever that means for the species in question.
> There's animals related to farm bred cows, pigs and chickens in the wild as well. You could use the land that's used for animal agriculture to let wild animals thrive, instead of birthing animals into a miserable life.
Life in nature is rather miserable. I'm talking about better life than nature would afford. Would it be better for those lives to have existed, or not?
It's a philosophical question, there's no "correct" answer.
The point was we can live long and healthy lives by going to the supermarket and buying non-meat food. We can survive now without making animals needlessly suffer (including paying others to kill animals on our behalf).
Some carnivorous wild animals have no choice but to hunt and eat prey alive to survive. We have a choice.
Yes. I grew up on a farm. I used to hunt. I can raise slaughter clean and process animals.
I have always been close to my food source and I think that is why I find this disconnect people have interesting.
My wife can’t eat out of the garden because she sees the shit on the plants and the bugs that crawl all over them. She doesn’t have a problem with store veggies though :)
I can't answer for everyone, but in the interest of continuing conversation my answer to your question in the last sentence would yes.
It would be better for an animal to have never existed than to have its entire existence be measured by the utility of killing it and butchering it for people to eat.
All life leads to death, in nature or captivity. Pretty much any animal will be eaten upon death, by predators, scavengers, or microbes. Sometimes it will be killed to be eaten. Death follows wild animals at every step.
Captive animals can live better lives than wild animals. They can be treated well. That's my premise.
You can have the position that either such life is just meaningless suffering and that its non-existence is better than its existence.
But the purpose of a wild animal is not to be killed and eaten. I’m not convinced you could accurately describe in words what the purpose of a wild animal is. However, it is easy to describe what the purpose of beef cattle. It is to be killed and be eaten by the same animal who has bred them to have high muscle content and caged them.
“Captive” animals is entirely too broad a class. Pets have great lives much of the time. I am talking about animals bred and raised for human consumption only, and I do believe those lives are meaningless suffering based on the goal of that life. Extending the argument, if a person were birthed solely to be an organ farm for a wealthy individual, that would also be meaningless suffering even if they were treated “well” for most of their life.
> But the purpose of a wild animal is not to be killed and eaten. I’m not convinced you could accurately describe in words what the purpose of a wild animal is.
A wild animal doesn't have a purpose. It just is. It will die and it will get eaten anyway.
> However, it is easy to describe what the purpose of beef cattle. It is to be killed and be eaten by the same animal who has bred them to have high muscle content and caged them.
Fair enough.
> I am talking about animals bred and raised for human consumption only, and I do believe those lives are meaningless suffering based on the goal of that life.
Feeding some other being isn't entirely meaningless. Also, if the animal was living the best life it could live, is it still suffering? If so, then all life is suffering.
> Extending the argument, if a person were birthed solely to be an organ farm for a wealthy individual, that would also be meaningless suffering even if they were treated “well” for most of their life.
That's the plot of "The Island". Obviously, it sounds morally repulsive, but from the perspective of such a life lived subjectively, it's better than most lives lived throughout human history.
Could ask the same about humans. Do you really think it's better to give a kid a good life and then off them at age 10 because something else thinks they taste good? Seems like a pretty simple ethical question: no.
You could extend this anywhere. Pussy feels great. Rape doesn't kill anyone. We could keep some women around and give them great lives as sex slaves. Surely nonexistance is be worse than that! I could even give my harem a much better life than any animal can experience.
> Do you really think it's better to give a kid a good life and then off them at age 10 because something else thinks they taste good? Seems like a pretty simple ethical question: no.
A more appropriate question would be, would you rather live a life in the wild and die from starvation, from a simple infection, or from being mauled to death? Or, would you rather have full accommodation for your entire life, but you get killed at age 35? Or, would you rather not exist at all?
I don't think that question is as simple as you make it sound.
> We could keep some women around and give them great lives as sex slaves.
"Great lives as sex slaves" sounds a bit oxymoronic, doesn't it?
> I could even give my harem a much better life than any animal can experience.
If you can afford it, you can have a harem right now without enslaving anybody, because some women would rather be a prostitute than whatever the alternative is.
The only meat I'd eat is from an animal, living in excellent conditions, dying of old age. If the species was ever bred, it must have been bred exclusively for health and fitness, not for higher yield of flesh or milk. If it was not bred, the reproduction should have no human intervention.
Everything else life related should not have human intervention, if it does not improve upon the quality of life.
Although, this view is pretty idyllic and probably unattainable or not profitable.
> Although, this view is pretty idyllic and probably unattainable or not profitable.
It's on the extreme end, but there is a spectrum of how we allow animals to be raised. At the one end, even those with the lowest incomes can afford meat, but conditions are bad. At the other end, only the wealthy can afford meat, but conditions can be good. That's the trade-off.
I like the taste of meat but I don't like how is it made. So if I can get a sensible substitute which hasn't been made killing animals, I'll eat it.
I'm not all day eating substitutes, as some of them are extremely processed, and also, I like vegetables and legumes, but I'll eat a Beyond burger or some other fake meat every once in a while.
You can think about it as in "I like my cell phone but I rather find something made with less suffering, so I'll buy a fairphone or something like that"
I generally avoid fake meat but plenty of people don't eat meat for religious or moral reasons. They might still want something meat-like, though, and fake meat provides that.
I am curious, and also don't mean any offense by it: why is this surprising or even silly to you? Has it been your believe so far that a major driver behind avoiding meet is the taste or texture?
> The thing I find silly is if you dont like eating animals or causing their death why eat fake animal meat ?
Because... fake animal meat does not cause animals to die?
People somehow get really hung up on this fake meat thing, and at the same time often accuse vegetarians or vegans of policing their food choices. Why don't you just accept that if dozens of people in this thread post that they like the taste or texture of the "fake" product, then that means that they like the taste or texture of the "fake" product, and there is nothing more for you to understand?
(Not a vegetarian myself, but I tend to only eat meat at special occasions. I like the taste and texture of some meat replacement products. Many others are atrociously bad.)
> It's like abstaining from sex by using a sex doll in my mind.
That comparison is only valid if having sex causes the death of your partner. And if you are someone who tends to murder their sex partners, then yes, it would be very very good if you switched to sex dolls.
i'm not sure this argument holds up either - if you believed having sex is inherently cruel to the person you're having sex with, but you still enjoy sex, why is using a sex doll not a reasonable solution?
Like a lot of Americans, I grew up eating lots of hamburgers and hot dogs, and while I think vegetables are delicious in their own right and don't need to imitate meat, sometimes I just want a burger. And sometimes I just want a junk food fast food burger. That new impossible whopper at Burger King is really good. I don't think I'm alone in occasionally wanting the familiarity of the food you used to eat. Beyond Meat/Impossible satisfy that.
I am vegan for half a year. Before that I ate 500+ gr of meat on most day (classic bodybuilding chicken breasts, whey, eggs, vegetables, oats, rice, etc. "clean diet"...).
When I started on the vegan diet I was afraid that it would not be tasteful and will be bland and boring. But 6 months on and I am still amazed by how with very little imagination in the kitchen I come out with very very tasteful recepies and dishes which are healthy and are 95% whole food based with minimal processing by myself.
Now, regarding processed vege-meat things like beyond burger.. I bought it to use it only for big barbeques when there are alot of people. Not to avoid vegan talk, if anybody is interested I am open to talk about it, but it is just so much easier for barbeques.
I do prepare homemade vege burgers at home, but they need greater care in handling (can crumble more easily) so I use beyond for only this purpose.
> Why do you want to eat vegetables that are fake meat or made to taste like meat ?
Why do people on diets eat low calorie desserts?
The same way people go on diets because they want to lose weight but not to avoid the taste of food they like, people go vegan because of environmental and animal cruelty reasons but not to avoid the taste of food they like.
Animal cruelty is an issue without eating meat being involved.
That said, when you raise a cow and you know you are going to eat it most folks aren't so cruel. Kosher meats ( i have heard this ) are harvested with ethical methods.
I think many people are too far removed from the process of how food is created.
How do you ethically and without cruelty keep then kill an animal that doesn't want to die usually 20% or less into its natural life span?
> That said, when you raise a cow and you know you are going to eat it most folks aren't so cruel. Kosher meats ( i have heard this ) are harvested with ethical methods.
> For meat to be Kosher, the animal must be slaughtered in a particular way, so the Rabbi in a Kosher abattoir is a specially trained religious slaughterer. A very sharp knife is used to cut the oesophagus, the trachea, carotid arteries and jugular veins in one smooth action. There must be no pause during the action nor excessive pressure on the blade. Failure to meet these specific requirements renders the animal unkosher.
If that's correct, how is that not cruel? Animals don't want to die.
You don't have to kill the animal or breed animals to be killed. You're choosing for that to happen.
> The Native Americans would honor the animal and thank its spirit for the life force.
Why does that make killing something that doesn't want to be killed okay? Would that making killing a dog or human okay if you thanked their spirit after?
It's pretty simple - I really enjoy fake meat for the taste, texture and protein. It also lets me go out to places that would traditionally only have meat options like a burger joint.
SO likes it because she's religiously vegetarian but can incorporate more protein into her diet.
Personally, I miss the taste of meat sometimes, although that's happening less often these days. And meat tasting vegan dishes satisfy that need without the guilt that comes with killing an animal or destroying the planet.
I eat them more as an affordance to other people. They're rarely my first choice, but if I'm eating with someone else and they've cooked or we're in a non-vegan restaurant then that might be my only available option.
Another reason is junk food. It's definitely harder to eat unhealthy food being a vegan, but sometimes you want to. I know places where I can go and eat a vegan burger for example, the type that is really greasy and slimy and disgusting. I don't go there often, but if I get that urge then it's nice to know that I can.
Most meat flavour come from sauces. Your burger mostly tastes of ketchup, mayo, mustard, pickles, and fried onions.
Your steak is slathered in mushroom sauce, your fish is covered in batter or white wine, and your chicken is coated with 11 different herbs and spices.
You're eating meat, but you're tasting condiments.
I like veggie sausages because they fit in hot-dog buns. And burgers because they fit in burger buns. I wouldn't say the attraction is that they taste of "meat" - they're just convenient form factors.
Properly prepared meat/fish often has great own taste. It depends on (the part of) the animal, of course. You need the right amount of oil (or natural fat) and salt to bring out the flavor. Unfortunately, lots of people prefer boneless, skinless and fat-trimmed meat/fish.
Not a vegan, but the most common reasons I have heard cited for plant based foods are ethics of eating animals, the environmental impacts of meat production, and health concerns of meat consumption.
I’m sure even vegetarians/vegans enjoy the taste of meat. But they represent a small market. How can plant based food companies hope to get omnivores to buy their product? Making it similar in taste, texture, appearance seems to be the bet they’re taking.
It's not universal! Some people don't how it tastes because it reminds them of real meat and that grosses them out. This is a wider topic of discussion in the vegan/vegetarian community--what even are the ethics of fake meat in the first place (see Summer Burton's very recent piece about this in Buzzfeed: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/summeranne/morality-did...)?
Personally, I just really wanted to eat burgers and bratwurst again while maintaining my dietary choices (for moral and health reasons) but didn't like any of the previous widely available vegan alternatives. I find the seitan/soy/tvp options gross and black bean burgers never did it for me. I had to get over the taste and texture of the Beyond products making my brain and stomach feel like I was eating meat, but now I have a meal with them once every few weeks when I have the craving.
Why do you want to eat vegetables that are fake meat or made to taste like meat ?
It seems silly to me.