> The average salary for these employees will be many x greater than the average NYC resident - you need to compare the relative size of the +25k employees to the ~200k subset of residents that make $200k+ in NY, not the entire 8M pop.
NYC isn't known for small salaries, partly because it's not easy to live in Manhattan on a small salary.
A major industry in Manhattan is banking, and folks in investment banks pull salaries that easily rival engineers, even fresh out of school.
In fact that's a big reason that tech stayed out of NYC for a long time. It used to be that even senior engineers made half of what a junior investment banker would get.
Not all among these 25k employees will be paid over $200k. Not even among engineers. Amazon doesn't pay that well, for a FAANG.
This isn't the Bay, where if you're not an engineer, you're a starving artist. More than anywhere else in the US, engineers who think of themselves as "handsomely paid" will be up for a rude awakening in Manhattan.
For the sake of argument, let's say 5,000 of the new employees will be making $200k+. That means that their effect will be less than 15,000 employees making about $80k each, which I bet is about average for Manhattan.
Not a ton of effect.
> And yet they still submitted a bid, even while Mayor de Blasio was badmouthing the company
It would be outrageous if they didn't. Even 100 well paying jobs should be enough for the mayor to try to court them. He's a public servant, and these jobs serve the public.
Moreover, this will help establish NYC as a tech hub, something it's been striving for for quite a while, generally without great success.
Finally, I bet the incentive package isn't as aggressive as others that were submitted. Amazon wants to be in NYC quite as much as NYC wants Amazon.
Good points. I think we're mostly in agreement that NY needed to put a bid in, unrealistic to call for cities to boycott the bid process. And that the impact of Amazon building a 2nd HQ will be pretty big for the city, if not in $$ terms (which I still believe) then at least in perception and to get access to the young professional talent that would've gone into banking/consulting otherwise. Will be interesting to see how the city handles increasing tech gentrification vs. bankers moving to connecticut
200k is at the low/mid range of an SDE2 at Amazon, Amazon pays more competitively than people give them credit for, especially compared to the majority of firms competing for software engineers in NYC right now.
An SDE2 is a senior software engineer, typically one who's been with Amazon for a few years.
It's unreasonable to assume most of the employees in the new office are going to be SDE2. Likely most of them will be new hires and SDE1.
$200k total compensation is not competitive for an experienced senior software engineer in Manhattan. I bet one of the arguments against NYC was that Amazon would likely have to improve compensation packages.
I'm not an expert on Amazon, but I do have friends working there, so I asked them.
They told me it's very rare for a new hire to come in as SDE3. Even a very experienced senior engineer is unlikely to get an offer above SDE2 level.
SDE3 is thus not just a senior engineer, but one who has been with Amazon for several years.
Per our discussion, that means very few of the new office employees are going to be above SDE2 level. The stated purpose of this office is to recruit new talent, which will be at SDE2 level at most.
Finally, "close to 300k" isn't very competitive for a senior NYC SWE who has been with the same company for years. I'm sure you know this is far below most other FAANGs for a similar position.
Close to 300k would be a person receiving an offer as an SDE 3, where with time spent at the company that amount is higher. It might have been different in my experience, but plenty of new people come in as SDE 3's should they have the relevant experience. The difference in compensation between amazon and fb/google/netflix is minimal except for at the very junior levels.
All I can say is: it doesn't match the accounts I am hearing from friends.
For example, a couple of my friends interviewed with Amazon fairly recently, for senior engineering positions. In every case when the same person received an offer from Amazon + another FAANG - the other FAANG offer was substantially higher.
In one case I know the exact numbers, and the other FAANG offer was 50% (!) higher.
> The difference in compensation between amazon and fb/google/netflix is minimal except for at the very junior levels.
This not only contradicts what I know from friends, it also makes little sense. Hiring top talent straight out of college is a huge priority for companies like Amazon, which is trying to build a strong talent base. Underpaying at the entry level means they'll lose all the best candidates.
Only paying competitively at more senior levels means they're counting on these people to suddenly relocate to Seattle after 5-6+ years at another FAANG, which would never happen. Especially as Amazon doesn't pay particularly well at the senior level too.
You want to tell me an L4-5 from Google will move to Seattle to work as an SDE3 for "almost $300k"? I.E. take a 50% paycut to work for a company with worse reputation in an area that has far fewer tech jobs than the Bay? Mid career?
Please.
It's pretty well known that if you get an offer from Amazon and also from Facebook or Google, you will accept Facebook or Google. This is true for all levels, and the numbers you are quoting only confirm this preference.
My impression is that Amazon has been having trouble competing for top talent, and is working to improve its propositions, with this big new office in NYC being part of the pitch. They do have ways to go before they can actually compete with the better FAANGs out there, to the point when people will routinely choose them over Facebook or Google or Apple.
Just look at levels.fyi which is relatively up to date data on how much people make at each level. The level to level mapping may be higher at google, but google is also notorious for down leveling, and in turn making less money and having less ability for quick advancement anyways. Add on the fact that amazon has had better stock growth and the total amount is negligible.
I've worked at multiple fangs/unicorns, and any differences between these companies is largely marginal. Maybe amazon is worse now than I realized, and maybe other companies are better now than I realized, but overall, what ultimately matters more is that you're at a place that will allow you to keep getting promoted rather than any one company that pays more at any given level.
NYC isn't known for small salaries, partly because it's not easy to live in Manhattan on a small salary.
A major industry in Manhattan is banking, and folks in investment banks pull salaries that easily rival engineers, even fresh out of school.
In fact that's a big reason that tech stayed out of NYC for a long time. It used to be that even senior engineers made half of what a junior investment banker would get.
Not all among these 25k employees will be paid over $200k. Not even among engineers. Amazon doesn't pay that well, for a FAANG.
This isn't the Bay, where if you're not an engineer, you're a starving artist. More than anywhere else in the US, engineers who think of themselves as "handsomely paid" will be up for a rude awakening in Manhattan.
For the sake of argument, let's say 5,000 of the new employees will be making $200k+. That means that their effect will be less than 15,000 employees making about $80k each, which I bet is about average for Manhattan.
Not a ton of effect.
> And yet they still submitted a bid, even while Mayor de Blasio was badmouthing the company
It would be outrageous if they didn't. Even 100 well paying jobs should be enough for the mayor to try to court them. He's a public servant, and these jobs serve the public.
Moreover, this will help establish NYC as a tech hub, something it's been striving for for quite a while, generally without great success.
Finally, I bet the incentive package isn't as aggressive as others that were submitted. Amazon wants to be in NYC quite as much as NYC wants Amazon.