Right now they only sell trinkets, like sunglasses. But both the founders are former spooks. They live in fairfax, 20min from Langley. And they're adding Tor and Tails support in the next release.

The implications are massive and disturbing. 13yos will be able to buy heroin. It's not just breathless speculation. I probably would've done something similar, not to use it, but just to see if I could. You do that kind of stuff all the time as a faux-edgy kid. And it's easy for kids to get bitcoin from ATMs. I don't even want to think about what will happen in groups.

I'm trying to keep quiet and see what happens with the project. But all the darknet markets are apparently dead right now. It will either be one of the most empowering or damaging pieces of technology. Tor and Amazon had a baby and named it OpenBazaar.

But I know how hard it is to predict anything like that, so it's like a 90% chance I'm just posting a silly comment. It's not too hard to imagine though -- bitcoin and tor serve as examples of what's possible at the intersection of society and technology. All the elements are there for the project to have a huge impact.

I think of the whole "sex ed" debate. Studies and statistics show that providing information -- and practical alternatives, such as birth and disease control -- works. "Abstinence only" does not.

Hell, even our "War on Drugs". Turns out that maybe my friend who grew magic mushrooms -- of which I never partook -- was doing better for himself than those turning to the nascent Prozac revolution. We're seeing reporting now that, under some conditions, those hallucinogenic experiences may be more effective at combating depression.

As for myself, I've come to think that the ever increasing "IP rights" are becoming an increasing burden on society and technology's development. Creative people are running up against walls hindering their creativity, walls that seem to be increasingly sold to "rent-seeking" holding companies.

To some extent, maybe those companies are useful and productive -- arbitraging initial creativity into a more reliable source of cash and/or cash flow.

But when they turn around and push for laws that continue to increase the tenure of their holdings and monopolies... They are using their position to further entrench their position, rather than foster free-flowing development.

For a long time, I tried -- more than many around me -- to "play by the rules". Belatedly, it seems, I've been becoming more aware of just how rigged "the rules" are and are becoming.

Free-flowing heroin's a scary thing. But, so's the law and order crowd -- or some of its more extreme aspects.

I realize my musings here are probably controversial. And I guess I'll add, for the sake of balance as well as whoever might be monitoring threads like these, that I continue to live a rather "squeaky clean" life.

But I can't buy in to the law and order rhetoric, any more.

I doubt you're unaware of this. Clearly you have an axe to grind.

You are so out of touch! There are plenty of 13yos selling in the US, it's not like it's hard to find.

Obviously the way to prevent minors from getting access is to legalize / regulate.

Well, another sign that I live in a dystopia, always nice to read on a Sunday night.

The idea seems neat, and potentially empowering. The implementation is pretty lacking though.

You know what? We should build one. Right now. Otherwise someone else will. If we become the defacto standard, we can at least have some controls in place. You might argue that would disqualify the implementation, but network effects are very powerful. eBay is still eBay.

Not all of us. There are multiple companies and a lot of people working on OpenBazaar of varying skills. Our new major version fixes a number of issues with version 1 which was built with much less funding and man power.

If you'd like to work on a decentralized marketplace we'd love to have you help out with OpenBazaar. Feel free to join our Slack and discuss what you might like to work on if you'd like.

How about you go work on your project run by former spooks, and I'll start my own, and we'll see who comes out on top? You're also the beficiary of investors. Ask yourself: why are they investing in you? Your stated goal is to never turn a profit, ever. You've also foregone any ICO attempt, which is free money. Why? Because you can't, because if people start using your project with your new Tor support, you'll be a co-conspirator in a drug distribution network.

But you don't just come out and say this. You're not straightforward. It's fake idealism, and that quality more than any other is what motivates me to compete here.

The fact that you're worried is even more evidence that we were onto something. Maybe others will join me, if I show convincing progress.

Or maybe not, and you'll be the eBay of the future. Considering your founders' ties, that's pretty unsettling. So why don't you join me instead?

This is a standing invitation to all readers: email me. Let's figure out how to organize this and make it work.

Feel free to start your own project and compete; that would be great. We have a number of competitors and we're all driving the ecosystem forward.

"Your stated goal is to never turn a profit, ever."

I don't know where you got that idea. The company I work for, OB1, does certainly intend to make a profit at some point.

"You've also foregone any ICO attempt, which is free money. Why? Because you can't"

We could probably raise a lot of money an ICO, but we'd prefer not to. We even wrote about the reasons why: https://blog.openbazaar.org/why-openbazaar-token-doesnt-exis...

"because if people start using your project with your new Tor support, you'll be a co-conspirator in a drug distribution network."

No more so than Bram Cohen is a conspirator in a piracy network. And this kind of potential limitation in getting funding is exactly why ICOs exist.

"But you don't just come out and say this. You're not straightforward. It's fake idealism, and that quality more than any other is what motivates me to compete."

I don't understand what you think I'm not being straightforward about, but feel free to compete. I don't understand why you would want to given that you clearly think the idea is not very good for good luck.

Except wait, you're insulated from these ill effects because your founders are former spooks. You have ties to protect you.

I wonder why anyone would want to create a Tor equivalent for a marketplace for physical goods? Especially the government?

It's interesting how you're deflecting at the end -- I do think this is a terrible idea, and has the potential to unlock the gates of hell onto the world in the form of addicts having an endless supply of their addiction at the push of a button. But if you're determined to build your business on the backs of these people, then I am determined to beat you. If this technology is inevitable, then I think it's best not to let you come out on top. We'll see if anyone agrees.

"A better analogy would be the founders of TPB. They went to jail for getting money from pirated content (ads). What do you think will happen to you when you try to extract any money at all from a network that people are using for darknet purposes?"

TPB is a search engine for pirated content. OB1 search, duosear.ch, and mubiz.com (the main 3 OB search engines) do not show illicit content. If anybody happens across some please notify us immediately.

"Except wait, you're insulated from these ill effects because your founders are former spooks. You have ties to protect you."

Brian used to work for Booz Allen. That's it. I don't know which others you're referring to. I highly doubt Brian has government protection.

"Especially the government?"

The government has no involvement in OpenBazaar but even if they did, so does Tor. What do you think the Tor project is trying to hide?!

"But if you're determined to build your business on the backs of these people, then I am determined to beat you."

If you truly believe it's such a horrible project (the scariest you've ever heard of you said), then trying to out compete us seems extremely hypocritical.

When it's possible for a new technology to be created and fundamentally shape society, it will inevitably be created. There is a chance that you're right about OB. If you are, then the first entity to make this technology work will have a massive advantage, just like Bitcoin and Tor do. People look to the Bitcoin core dev team for ideological guidance. You will have a lot of influence.

Now, the fact that you plan to make money by offering a search feature changes nothing about the underlying usage of the network. You're adding Tor support. You know what that means, and what the implications are. Again, you are not being straight with us -- notify us of illegal content immediately? What marketing nonsense is this? Your Tor support will be the reason for the future illegal content.

You undoubtedly know this. When people are being so shifty, it seems best not to trust them. You won't just come out and say that your idea will never work if you limit yourself to eBay type items, because we already have a perfectly good eBay. Your darknet users are your lifeline.

I did not think you were serious, and I apologize for poaching now that I know you were serious. I thought you were joking.

There are many cases for free markets than you seem to be worried about. I am not trying to hide the fact that people can use Tor and the internet to do things they should not do. The good outweighs the bad. I'm sorry you have such a sour disposition on our project but frankly it doesn't matter. You're a lot of bark and no bite.

Neither OB1 nor OpenBazaar is anybody's "lifeline", most of us gave things up in order to work on what we believe in. We're all fortunate enough to be able to do such a thing and in no way are relying on it to survive.

I'm sorry you have such a sour disposition on our project but frankly it doesn't matter. You're a lot of bark and no bite.

Oh really? Let's find out. Antagonizing people from a position of power has a nice tendency to backfire. And the fact that you'd do it publicly is further proof of the kind of people that are behind this.

Heard a billion times. If you're right and they come for somebody as low level as me feel free to gloat.

"And the fact that you'd do it publicly is further proof of the kind of people that are behind this."

What on Earth does that mean? I'm more than proud to be working on this project and have no reason to not be public. But "what kind of people" are you talking about? How is being open about my identity some kind of shady signal?

I've often heard pg say it's not important to correct people when they're trying to misinterpret you. Maybe this is what he meant.

I know one of them probably hasn't worked directly for a government agency, but that is quite a coincidence for both people to be located literally next to one.

I’m a husband and father of three living in Virginia.

I'd rather assume positive intent, but you really aren't helping your cause here.

If any readers are interested in more about OpenBazaar (and possibly why to stop them), here's a subthread from last time they came up on HN:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14830081

Stop us? How do you propose to do that?

Edit: Also I implore anybody that thinks Sam is a "spook" to speak with him on Slack or Reddit. He is one of the smartest libertarian thinkers I've personally met. It's genuinely funny to think he might be an undercover narc or something.

I propose that anyone who thumbs their nose at the idea that we as a community can do better than them should join me before they gain real power. We've seen what motivated devs can do. I think we should harness this energy, or at least try.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't quite know what that will look like. But it has to be better than what we've seen. Are you sure there's no way to beat someone who mocks a fellow dev publicly and declares they're so far ahead that we shouldn't bother trying?

The fact is, one of the founders of potentially one of the biggest technological developments worked for Snowden's old employer and lives 20min from Langley. They're shipping Tor support with their next update. It seemed best to ensure everyone was clear about the players involved.

Edit: The way you said Sam changed his location as if it was a reaction to you is beyond hilarious.

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

– Paul Kedrosky

I heard this quote through http://www.paulgraham.com/kedrosky.html, and it stuck with me. It seems apt.

What does working for Booz Allen have to do with anything? Well, it was important enough that someone created a throwaway just to post it here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14830703

That got me curious. I was ready to dismiss it (throwaway account + conspiracy-ish implications), but I dug around and found an article that corroborated it:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2016/03/16/openb...

Then there’s the ethos of OpenBazaar’s chief purveyors: Brian Hoffman, a former lead associate for cybersecurity at Edward Snowden’s old employer Booz Allen Hamilton , long-time Bitcoin specialist Sam Patterson and academic Dr. Washington Sanchez. After taking over the OpenBazaar project after a few emails from its original creator Amir Taaki, one of the first to promote and develop Bitcoin and the associated Dark Wallet, the trio sought to make a platform free of government control where companies could make more money by cutting out the middleman, typically the owner of the store like eBay or Amazon, who take a small percentage of each sale on their respective platforms. With Bitcoin, the middlemen, the banks and credit card companies who took a cut of traditional transactions, were already removed. But the platforms (yes, including those dark web drug and gun markets) still took their slice. With OpenBazaar, there’s only the buyer and the seller.

Now, I've left the full quote for journalistic integrity. I believe that the reader should be informed, and that reporting shouldn't be biased one way or the other. Let the reader make up their own minds.

You'll notice he was a lead associate for cybersecurity. From having worked in the security industry, that seems pretty close to saying "This is someone who worked directly in the field, doing the type of activities that the NSA does." That may be false, but the point is, we don't know. We don't know anything about his background beyond that. At the very least, people here were curious:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14830923

I'm not sure what to make of that, but it seemed worth mentioning.

Absolutely worth mentioning - because it implies similar roots as Tor: a project that provides a platform for plausible denials communication for the intelligence community in the case of Tor - for a "dénivelé" marketplace in the case of Open Bazaar. Things like iran-contras would probably be easier today (under many Panopticon watchers) with such tech available.

It sure is worth mentioning! But then, Snowden has similar roots. So ??? But yes, I'm sure that the code will be reviewed carefully.

At this point, I was ready to dismiss it as a coincidence. Someone who worked for Booz may not have directly enabled a lot of the abuses that we saw there, based on Snowden's evidence. But then I started thinking about why the investors were investing in this project. There's no user model, no clear growth, and you've stated that you'll never take any fees. Is the fact that you landed investment and the fact that your founders have ties to the NSA really so unrelated?

It's coincidence, and I'll be the first to admit that it seems stupid and conspiratorial to go down this rabbithole. That's why I didn't. But you're pushing me to justify myself here. There are so many people on reddit who are asking "When is tor support coming? How can we use OpenBazaar to sell illegal goods?" And your project has responded with quiet support. Sam even tested OpenBazaar on Tails for them. Do you think those users wouldn't find the founders' ties strange? Or maybe care?

You've successfully galvanized me here to not simply ignore all of this. If you're as low-level as you say, you shouldn't be coming on HN and representing OB in such a manner. You're talking about strategy, extending invitations for people to join you, and have the ear of the founders. You're a dev, like me.

Which is why it was doubly interesting that you chose to respond by thumbing your nose and declaring smugly that you are unstoppable, and even being like "What are you going to do about it?" We devs are uniquely qualified to do something about perceived abuses. I don't know if that will happen here -- we'll see -- but why am I doing this? Because of the #1 rule: The reader should be informed, and you guys have been extraordinarily shifty about some basic questions.

This leads to the drug issue. You're marketing this as a decentralized eBay with a wink and a nod, while shipping Tor support with your v2. You claim you'll immediately remove any illegal activity from your search engine, but we all know that your search engine will be irrelevant.

There are many ways to introduce this technology to the world in a positive, substantive way, that will help people instead of hurt them. How about popping up some self-help resources for users that you notice seem to be fitting the pattern of an addict? You're making the code. You have the capability to do that, even if it's decentralized. Their identity may be anonymous, but you can see what they're doing and you can try to help them. You can have discussion forums in the app itself where people can talk about this and helpfully help people who are hurting.

Have you ever helped someone who was addicted before? I've tried, and I've seen how tremendously destructive darknet markets have been in their lives. It was the sole reason they were able to continue their addiction. You are planning on just sweeping this under the rug while profiting off of people like them. That's what we call a "dick move" where I'm from, to say nothing of how morally reprehensible it is to facilitate this technology while turning a profit.

My goal here is to think of a way to introduce this technology without turning any profit. I'm thinking of doing an ICO for my own personal dev resources, since I need money to float myself to work on this. It will be the lowest-capped ICO in history, and the token will have no utility whatsoever other than to gauge interest in whether people feel it's a good idea to try to wrestle control away from a VC-backed startup. But if the technology is inevitable, then it's worth trying.

Now, this whole time, it's been completely obvious that you really have nothing to worry about. The odds are overwhelmingly likely that I will fail to do anything more than make a little ripple. But you have come on here and specifically aimed some petty bickering at me in response to raising some serious concerns about your project. And they're not just my concerns -- people were talking about them quite level-headedly before you showed up. We like to think about how technology will impact the world on HN.

Based on all of this, I think the OpenBazaar project has demonstrated some ineptitude while callously dismissing the idea that any of this is wrong or that it shouldn't be done. If you would just own it, and admit that this is what you're doing, then it would be different. You could say "Well, we know this has some serious implications, and we're trying to do this partly so that it comes into the world in a positive way." But no, you want to engage in some petty squabble. Look at what's at stake! And this is what you spend your time on?

The die is cast. We'll see how things turn out. And I wish you luck in your own venture.

"What does working for Booz Allen have to do with anything? Well, it was important enough that someone created a throwaway just to post it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14830703"

That heavily downvoted post in Russian that made no sense in any language or a different one?

"At this point, I was ready to dismiss it as a coincidence. Someone who worked for Booz may not have directly enabled a lot of the abuses that we saw there, based on Snowden's evidence. But then I started thinking about why the investors were investing in this project. There's no user model, no clear growth, and you've stated that you'll never take any fees. Is the fact that you landed investment and the fact that your founders have ties to the NSA really so unrelated?"

Again you ignore that we're a for-profit company. If a new network becomes popular than a company that has the most expertise in the network becomes highly valuable. Regardless, there are a number of places to make money in a free market. Before I worked for OB1 I was providing such services.

"It's coincidence, and I'll be the first to admit that it seems stupid and conspiratorial to go down this rabbithole. That's why I didn't. But you're pushing me to justify myself here. There are so many people on reddit who are asking "When is tor support coming? How can we use OpenBazaar to sell illegal goods?" And your project has responded with quiet support. Sam even tested OpenBazaar on Tails for them. Do you think those users wouldn't find the founders' ties strange? Or maybe care?"

Care about what? I also use Tails and am working on making OB work on it. So what? We support a number of operating systems. I do not care who Brian and Sam worked for before because I understand the code more than they do.

"You've successfully galvanized me here to not simply ignore all of this. If you're as low-level as you say, you shouldn't be coming on HN and representing OB in such a manner. You're talking about strategy, extending invitations for people to join you, and have the ear of the founders. You're a dev, like me"

You're not my boss. I can talk where I want how I want. If Brian wants me to speak differently he'll let me know. I'm a developer, but it doesn't sound like we're anything a like.

"Which is why it was doubly interesting that you chose to respond by thumbing your nose and declaring smugly that you are unstoppable"

I did not say that; that would be akin to declaring a ship unsinkable. I've expressed that as a protocol there's no reasonable way to stop it but if somebody wants to try feel free.

"you guys have been extraordinarily shifty about some basic questions"

Ask me anything and I will respond here publicly.

"but we all know that your search engine will be irrelevant"

Okay, perhaps it won't be. So what? Maybe Google won't be the dominate search engine long term. What about it?

"There are many ways to introduce this technology to the world in a positive, substantive way, that will help people instead of hurt them. How about popping up some self-help resources for users that you notice seem to be fitting the pattern of an addict? You're making the code. You have the capability to do that, even if it's decentralized. Their identity may be anonymous, but you can see what they're doing and you can try to help them. You can have discussion forums in the app itself where people can talk about this and helpfully help people who are hurting."

We're not doctors nor psychologists. If people want help they can get it elsewhere.

"Have you ever helped someone who was addicted before? I've tried, and I've seen how tremendously destructive darknet markets have been in their lives. It was the sole reason they were able to continue their addiction. You are planning on just sweeping this under the rug while profiting off of people like them. That's what we call a "dick move" where I'm from, to say nothing of how morally reprehensible it is to facilitate this technology while turning a profit."

I'm not a NARC, it's not my job to keep people clean.

"My goal here is to think of a way to introduce this technology without turning any profit. I'm thinking of doing an ICO for my own personal dev resources, since I need money to float myself to work on this. It will be the lowest-capped ICO in history, and the token will have no utility whatsoever other than to gauge interest in whether people feel it's a good idea to try to wrestle control away from a VC-backed startup. But if the technology is inevitable, then it's worth trying."

Go ahead but since you're opinions are garbage I doubt you'll do well. If you do then I welcome the increased availability of free markets.

"Now, this whole time, it's been completely obvious that you really have nothing to worry about. The odds are overwhelmingly likely that I will fail to do anything more than make a little ripple. But you have come on here and specifically aimed some petty bickering at me in response to raising some serious concerns about your project."

You've raised no serious concerns; you're a rambling idiot. If you have any real concerns other than being peoples' nanny please correct me.

"Based on all of this, I think the OpenBazaar project has demonstrated some ineptitude while callously dismissing the idea that any of this is wrong or that it shouldn't be done. If you would just own it, and admit that this is what you're doing, then it would be different. You could say "Well, we know this has some serious implications, and we're trying to do this partly so that it comes into the world in a positive way." But no, you want to engage in some petty squabble. Look at what's at stake! And this is what you spend your time on?"

It's a Sunday. A day off. OB is not spending any resources for me to browse HN on the weekend and respond to dumbass baseless claims like you have.

"The die is cast. We'll see how things turn out. And I wish you luck in your own venture."

It doesn't matter how our venture goes. Personally we are far from destitute, and generally a real free market will happen. There's no need for luck.

Was spam. He is referring to the parent post, plainly stating that your team has agency ties.

>Again you ignore that we're a for-profit company

Again, you don't suggest how you turn profit, when you take no fees or run any infrastructure.

>I also use Tails and am working on making OB work on it. So what?

If you have to ask, you're either being deliberately obtuse or missing the point: Tails = Tor = hidden services = drug markets; which you seem to be developing

>You're not my boss. I can talk where I want how I want.

Not if you're as low level as you say you are, or you may be out of a job very soon; you aren't painting a very good picture of your company. On that note, if you aren't at a high level, you may not have all the info, and are unqualified to have this discussion.

>Ask me anything and I will respond here publicly.

Yes, with shifty answers. QED.

Etc.

Not the GP, but you have definitely damaged my opinion of OB far more than /u/sillysaurus3 has, and I think someone needed to call you out before you hurt yourself.

We're not even close to friends so don't be patronizing. You said the two founders lived in Virginia and I correctly stated that there are 3 founders and only one lives there. Sam having lived there before in no way affects our project. You're being ridiculous. You're original comment even admitted that you may be being ridiculous but still you persist.

I didn't say you shouldn't bother trying; I've said multiple times that _anybody_ working in this space is a gain. If you are really going to work on a totally open and free market that's wonderful. I don't care if OB loses I only care that some free marketplace wins. And I believe it will.

Your awful attitude and assumptions of ill will won't serve you well though.

EDIT: This is doable though. There are endless stories of new startups running circles around established competitors. I don't know if that will happen, but we should explore the possibility. How hard can it be to set this up in a nice packaged experience? It's a lot of work, but it's not difficult work.

It's hard to overstate how easy it is to dismiss ideas like this, though. I vividly remember my friend wanting to start a Bitcoin exchange in 2010 or so. He was like we can do it, people will eventually be transacting in BTC, this is a huge opportunity. Exchange? Isn't that finance? That's regulation hell, better not even try. Funny how things turn out.

Before that he was talking about neutal nets when we were teenagers, and I thought he was crazy. AI was just a fad that died in the 80's.

This particular idea seems of the same class, and I'm determined not to make the same mistake three times. But if there are hard issues with it, it's best to know. So what did you have in mind?

A possible assassination market that is untraceable might facilitate trade between these two sets of entities which is of course a good thing, because all trade is good.

Luckily, though, 99.9% of assassination markets are bound to be scams or honeypots anyway.

Dream Market is still up and has been since 2013.

I'm far more concerned about people buying and selling thirteen year olds.

From what I understand, its because they were all run by amateurs who made opsec or IT mistakes.

What I think is scary is that sooner or later, someone with the cash to hire serious professionals, like a Russian criminal gang, is going to set up a darknet marketplace that can't be cracked.

Honestly, I'm kind of surprised that so many darknet markets turned out to be run by amateur technies in the US or Western Europe rather than actual criminal gangs.

Maybe they already are getting help from established criminal gangs and organisations. It's not impossible.