I'm not sure what people find "beautiful" or "touching" in this story. A man is wracked by guilt over what he has done to the point of deciding to end his life, but then he forgets all about it as soon as a pretty girl gives him attention. Inasmuch as it is believable, this is a story about how all our lofty notions of justice, honor, purpose etc. are just bullshit, and it's really all about fucking, consuming and keeping those genes alive. Matter over mind, humanity revealed as a mere dusting on thought over the throbbing mass of limbic functions.
It is depressing. Its only redeeming quality is the fact that it's obviously fake.
There's one view of life where everything is only about ultimate timeless contextless values. That seems your perspective here. '...so by the transitive property it's only about fucking.'
At some point in my life I learned that I no longer subscribe to that point of view. The way I read that story is that within the context of flying bombing raids he felt he had no right to live. Which to me as a reader shows that he empathises with the people he bombed. It's not an eternal truth about man killing man happening but it's something he did to another human being.
When he meets the girl in the rain he's in another context in another moment between people. And he feels worthwhile for a moment again. She leaves him in the story so the fucking end goal is taken of the table. It was just an isolated moment that's meaningful in itself. And he feels differently. If we want to give the transition of feeling a name we might say he feels redeemed.
Just like the meeting in the rain was isolated and without end result similarly the posting on craigslist is without end result and follow up but it's still meaningful after 40+ yrs. Which goes to underscore that our emotions in life are often without end result and followed by totally different emotions and attendant value systems. But we have to experience them as meaningful anyway.
Because the alternative is nihilism and depression.
Just an impression of what goes through me at this point in my life when I read that story. I recognise your take on it as well. It's just that I learned that looking at life like that did not make me happy in the end. And that the feeling of intellectual victory was without substance.
Sounds like you're projecting your younger self on me. But in fact, "it's all about fucking" is not a conclusion from some philosophical perspective. It's all there in the story.
The character forgot his guilt because a hot girl spoke to him. That's 90% of what we know about her, that she's sexual attractive to him - in fact, that she's the most attractive girl he's ever seen. This is not a story about "human connections" or finding "acceptance" for one's past - heck, they didn't even talk about Vietnam. This is a story about overcoming sexual arousal through guilt. No, about sexual arousal overriding guilt.
And that is why it doesn't matter that the girl left. What "redeemed" him was not the girl, it was his own boner. "You're with me still", indeed.
Although there are complex emotions involved on top of "his own boner" - I agree with the substance of your post. Reading
joostdevries's comment reminds me of how much people still undervalue the power of instinctual passions in guiding behaviour, thoughts and (as all the sad love songs and this craigslist post amply demonstrates) words.
"Inasmuch as it is believable, this is a story about how all our lofty notions of justice, honor, purpose etc. are just bullshit, and it's really all about fucking, consuming and keeping those genes alive."
When we're sad, we often get caught in a sort of mental loop. Sometimes getting attention from a pretty girl steals our attention and helps bump us out of it. It's something about the human condition. It's relatable, and that's probably why people tend to find the story beautiful.
There's nothing inherently good or bad about that. Your disgust is fueled by the same physical processes that underly the warm fuzzies felt by others.
First of all it is human to feel suicidal for whatever reason from time to time. These times are lonely and just meeting a new person and having a normal conversation, no matter how short, can make a huge difference, to 'snap out of it'.
The life force is strong even with those determined to kill themselves - conscious decision making to end it all is over-ruled by some mystery hypervisor deep down in the brain. Guy snatches a few moments with one of those pretty girls that have been ignoring him for all of his life - what do you expect? Life is worth living, after all and 'I must kill myself' gets over-ruled for another day. That isn't about fscking or consuming, that is just about being a fragile human being and wanting someone to love.
Secondly, we rarely tell stories exactly as the events happened. With each telling of a story we learn what is important to the story and what is not. We omit facts that are not entirely necessary to be told. Right now there are refugees WALKING all the way from Syria to new lives in Europe. Along the way some of these refugees might have been given a bus ride to the outskirts of a city, somewhere along the way. If such a bus ride is a few miles and yet they have walked hundreds of miles, or maybe a thousand miles, are they 'lying' by claiming to have walked all the way? Are their stories fake, their epic walk undermined by a short bus ride somewhere in the midst of an epic walk?
In this instance, the author may not have looked for the woman every day for a year. He probably had some public holidays, health problems, bad weather or whatever along the way, so that part may not be entirely true.
You may have found this story depressing but I suspect you are in a minority.
> Guy snatches a few moments with one of those pretty girls that have been ignoring him for all of his life - what do you expect?
That's not in the story! It would at least have made a modicum of sense if he was a desperate loner who was going to kill himself over his feelings of absolute social and romantic rejection, but none of that is in the story.
It's creative writing, which some people like no matter how authentic.
The writer has some skills. The flow and efficiency would earn marks as a school assignment!
"scaled the hill with its golden dome, and meandered into that charming labyrinth divided by Hanover Street"
It might seem simple, but in those few words a lot of information is communicated.
"Ironically, the torture of your abandonment seemed to swallow my self-loathing"
Nicely put! Again, top marks.
As an aside, I've noticed over the years that programmers make good writers. Wit, efficiency, confidence. Obviously excelling at technical subject matter, but even so, sometimes it's entertaining. I wonder if the reverse is true? That good writers and literature-heads make good programmers (if they tried). As in, creative code, efficient code, structured etc.
Oh, come on. I can't tell if you're being ironic or clumsy, but if it's the later I strongly disagree. This is fantastic writing, much better than what we read everywhere everyday; in school it would warrant to take the teacher's place.
That said, it's only 1000 words. Don't get too excited.
By "school" I mean maybe college, a dedicated writing class. Who knows, who cares, but don't underestimate the talent of young writers motivated by viral glory!
I bet you will do anything – including degrading yourself (such as imitating the inanities of the group) – just to not be seen as a spoilsport at parties.
I am sorry, but thats all you have to say? Camillo is absolutely right on that subject. This person killed hundreds (if not more) of beings, realised his guilt, subsequently wanted to choose the "noble" path of taking the consequences (even though, realistically, it wouldnt have changed a single thing for those he bombed) and suddenly forgot everything the moment he met a pretty girl.
Fake or not, if you are saying people are only fun if they admire such a bunch of a wannabe-romantic story and go "aaaaaawwwww", then I am really sorry.
What age are you and Camillo? I had your sentiments as well in my early twenties but 20 years later I find those thoughts unhelpful for both me and others around me and taught myself first not to express them and then not to think them. So I am wondering if it might be an age thing or that experiences, social interaction and managing many people in companies changed me.
Not thinking about or expressing doesn't necessarily falsity it, much less serve as a reason to castigate someone at HN for pointing it out, albeit in a sentimental way.
Is it really that hard, even in this supposedly liberalized day and age, to have a conversation about these outdated romantic notions?
That's actually a pretty common retort often used by snarky people against other snarky or depressing people on the internet. Is it a meme? Possibly...
One wonders: does one really fly four bombing sorties in a week, get discharged, and get home within seven days? That sounds remarkably quick by government work standards.
Yes. The post is clearly fake. Even if the author hadn't messed up with any facts, the style of the writing gave it way. You'll notice that there are tons and tons of details. Everything is as specific as possible in an effort to adhere to "Show Not Tell". Even if we believed someone could have a memory this crystal clear after 40 years, many of the details are completely meaningless to the premise that is presented (a man thanking a woman for human interaction when he needed it most).
Even if we believed someone could have a memory this crystal clear after 40 years, many of the details are completely meaningless to the premise that is presented
I'm not claiming the story is real, but just presenting a counter view to the above. You seem to be assuming that:
A: This is real memories, given the story he's obviously thought about that encounter a lot. So, it's hardly been 40 years, it's been constantly repeated in his mind - also evolving. Some of the details might be wrong, some only carry the sentiment of what he believed he would have felt at that time. If, 40 years ago, he heard the same story he told now he might barely recognize it. Given that he contemplated suicide and add to that that he believes this be the turning point for getting past that (whether that is true nor not is irrelevant). It is no surprise that he has strong feelings and vivid memories from it.
B: Since when is memory organized by meaningfulness? Also, what is meaningful?
I'm not even 40 years old but, as an example, I could tell you in ridiculous detail of a presentation I did in school with two friends of mine when I was 11 years old. (~20 years ago), I could tell you about memories of the notes that we had for the presentation (handwritten notes written on the printed document we had produced) - I remember some of the images we used (and how they were completely irrelevant to the topic). Is that in any sense meaningful? God no. Is my memory crystal clear? Not at all, for one there are huge gaping holes that I either won't mention or that I must interpolate to get at (I do remember the overall context and sentiment, from that I could just assume (and believe) everything else was ordinary), but as an observer you'll mostly forgive that because I can tell you the color and the shape I used to circle a specific note on that document - and how I messed it up and rather than circling the note a lot of it ended up on the outside of it. Or how we messed up the order of the overhead sheets etc.
And that is about a boring presentation that I've not given much thought on, not a life-changing event that had a very sudden and thought-provoking ending.
Memory is a wonderful thing. If you still have papers from your time at school, I suggest to go through them and press yourself to remember details.
I learned Latin for 3 or 4 years, and from the top of my head could come up with maybe 100 latin words. But when I look at a latin text we translated back than, it comes back bit by bit. I might remember the ending of a meaningless story I translated 10 years ago in a rush before class started. Maybe I will remember specific mistakes I made in translating the text, or I will remember the picture that was next to the text in the course book. It is remarkable that memory is able to do. Granted, we know that a good part part of these memories are in fact incorrect. But as long as I don't have to talk to a court or write a memoir, it does not bother me.
A is not true. There have been many studies on eye witness testimony that disprove everything your saying. The reality is that our brain fills in many, many gaps.
B, you completely missed the point. Just completely missed the point to read that sentence the way you wanted to, "many of the details are completely meaningless to the premise that is presented" has nothing to do with memory. That's why it starts with "Even if we believed someone could have a memory this crystal clear...." So why are you even bothering to argue about memory with me when I gave the memory the benefit of the doubt in my argument?
A: Which was my point... Just because memory isn't reliable doesn't mean telling something in detail from memory is a tell-sign that it is fake. It just means that those memories could be wrong or, subconsciously, made up.
As I said, I just wanted to comment on that. And that because of the way you gave the memory the benefit of doubt, considering the circumstances anything else could have been equally suspicious.
Also, it's not hard to imagine he doesn't really believe he'll find her and typing it up serves a purpose of its own. It could also be something he just wanted to share.
Again, I'm not saying it's real, just that I didn't think the arguments I commented on was particularly convincing. Sorry?
The beauty of it is that love or just having someone to talk to can change lives and last for decades, no matter the background or what happened to a person. Pretty beautiful if you ask me :)
I disagree. The very act of listening to someone with that level of pain, a level so great he was about to end his own life, and similarly listening to the pain of the other person with the same intensity, that's where the beauty lies.
As if that woman was the first person to talk to him. Even if he had somehow lost all his family and friends back home, he would still have had some comrades in arms. And if he had been abnormally lonely it would have - should have! - been in the story, but it wasn't.
No, the point was not the act of listening, it was that the girl was hot.
Well that's just ill-informed. A person grappling with extreme guilt, especially in circumstances were they believe they have committed or participated in mass murder, in all likelihood may not be able to express themselves to their comrades.
There are plenty of war veterans, especially from WWI and WWII, who didn't speak to even their own families about the torment they were going through. Many veterans to this very day don't seek help and bottle up their trauma. Australia's national broadcaster, the ABC, has an excellent podcast about this on their Big Ideas website, perhaps you should take the time to listen to it [1].
Your comments are ill-informed and frankly unhelpful. The rate of suicide for veterans is twice the rate of the civilian population. A cursory Google search would lead you to Wikipedia which has a well sourced article detailing the rates and research into the problem [2]. You might also want to look at the PTSD article [3].
There's so many ways to look at life. Being an extreme cynic didn't work for me. It didn't improve my happiness, productivity or helped anyone around me.
I read the story as random kindness and forming a connection with another human saved a life. The moral for me is a smile, a kind word, a 30 minute conversation can impact people in significant ways.
What I got from it was that the man is wrecked by guilt. The woman provided him with a distraction and allowed him to get his life back on track (marriage, family) but in the end he is still wrecked by guilt - he cries everyday.
I find it sad that people feel it is acceptable to attack you personally, for this comment. It is your opinion and you are entitled to it, although apparently not on Hacker News.
Wow, Vulcan awaits you Sir! You are way more cynical than I am ... either that or really as depressed as the guy in the story? Maybe you are angry at the reflection this story forced on you? I wish you well in any case.
It is depressing. Its only redeeming quality is the fact that it's obviously fake.