I have some former co-workers, and some senior executive folks that could write letter of recommendations vouching that I'm competent etc. I used to have long hair which I've cut. I think that I dress farily ok. I have a brooks brother suit, levi jeans, some decent t-shirts etc.
I google'd OHP and Oregon Health Plan was the first thing that popped up. It seems like only people living in the state of oregon qualify for OHP. I currently live in the southern united states. I've used interviewcake, and looked at leetcode problems etc.. to prepare for dev interviews.
Thanks for the feedback. I initally wrote a 5000+ word post. However, after noticing that the limit is 2000. I cut a lot out of my post. I should've proofread more. Though, I feel that HN is an informal environment. I was trying to express that I dropped out of college due to the cost. The cyber security team is free.
I saw some people in Austin who did gig work like uber etc. I've thought about it. I'm a very anxious driver though. I've though about working in a Amazon warehouse. There's one near me. But they don't get health benefits for 3+ months. Have to do intense manual labor etc. EA QA was the most toxic place I ever worked at. Belittling people, thinking that all testers are incompetent etc. I have back pain, and dental issues which is why I mention insurance a lot.
> I've though about working in a Amazon warehouse. There's one near me. But they don't get health benefits for 3+ months. Have to do intense manual labor etc.
I think you need to focus on your priorities here. As I understand you're currently jobless and obviously have no health benefits, and are on the verge of becoming homeless. Doing three months of "intense manual labor" to get a paycheck and health benefits is (in my view at least) far preferable to being homeless and penniless.
My perception of your reply is that you think the Amazon warehouse job is beneath you; does homelessness appeal more? Seriously, at this stage, in the very short run, your number one priority should be to avert homelessness, and do whatever it takes. I know you mentioned back pain, but if the Amazon warehouse isn't your thing, there should be something else you can do to tide you over.
More broadly as lot of commenters have very kindly offered to talk to you and help you in various ways. That is an immense gift! Make use of it, and don't make them regret offering their assistance.
You're in a bad place mentally right now, but you're young, you're not stupid and you can get out of this, but you need to be willing to put in the effort. Asking the question here is a very good first step.
Lastly, you may also want to visit Ask A Manager [1] which has a lot of good advice on cover letters, resumes, interviewing, etc. It's not tech-specific, but most of the advice applies universally.
Also, forgot to mention, I was recently working "QA" for 5 years. Transitioned into that from full-stack webdev and am back in webdev again. QA in my case was actually very technical, required deep knowledge of web application deployment mechanisms, occasional debugging of web app code, a variety of languages, and writing tons of bash and CI configuration, some tests, and automating cloud things.
I won't lie and say it was as fun as traditional programming. But QA means a lot of different things, and just because you had a really bad experience with it (and I've heard terrible things about EA in general, not just their QA department), you should definitely be looking at QA for job opportunities that will meet your needs. Realistically you're going to be better suited to a lot of QA jobs right now, and employers are going to be more open to taking a chance on you given your history.
QA in video games is not an engineering role. It's usually a butts-in-seat role where you're expected to dilligently follow a task list without deviating in the slightest. You're expected to follow the checklist, on repeat. If you have initiative, save it for after work.
More senior qa roles will be designing test suites, maybe even developing them, but entry level game QA is not going to scratch a dev itch.
I was only elaborating on this because I suggested QA as an entry point to software engineering, and OP seemed to write it off because they had a bad experience in a QA role that was very different from what I was suggesting.
I don't know if this is possible in Austin, but Uber eats allows bicycle delivery (almost definitely available in Austin), and "on foot" delivery as well. Other delivery companies may have similar programs.
Instacart (in some locations) allows you to sign up just to do the shopping (then the drivers pick it up).
Taskrabbit will definitely have some things you can do without driving as well.
Just explore the options; something where you can set your own schedule would be really nice while you're job hunting and interviewing.
Yeah it pings your manager whenever you apply internally. That is an interesting work around. You can see HM/Sourcer/Recruiter for any roles internally. Then just get their contact information via Phone tool.
steps:
1) chime or slack them asking to setup a 30 minute sync about the role.
2) see what they want and if "apply"ing makes sense. If not, figure out your gaps.
Do this 5ish times. See where the gaps are. Work to fill them.
oh and get on blind so you can learn from other people's mistakes :)
Thanks, dude. Yeah I was hesitant if I should've accepted the CS offer. I was planning to transfer internally to a SecEng/Analyst/SDE 1 role. It might've been possible. I tried applying internally, but my applications would just turn in to no longer considered after a while. ytcracker works at Amazon.
I sent you an email to take you up on your mock interview offer.
At Amazon internal transfers don't work by clicking the "Apply" button. You reach out to the hiring manager first and have a coffee together, then if that goes well they setup the internal loop, if that goes well the hiring manager tells you to apply and you get the job. You don't apply until after you have it.
If you need the money you should probably take any job you could get. Customer support is not exactly a natural stepping stone, but its extremely hard to advance your career if you don't have enough money to survive.
Yeah, a headhunter might be a good idea. I'll check out some which were mentioned here. I heard of triplebyte but have heard they've done some sketchy stuff (spam emails, exposing PI) etc. But it sounds like they do have incentives to champion applicants.
Not to be argumentative. But yes, I did attend college. Send me a email, and I'll send you an email from my college email address (Hasn't been deactivited yet). I can send you my college transcript if that helps.. Well, I did get hired by IBM as a programmer so... I've contributed to a GNU open source project.. So I feel that I am qualifed for a entry level developer/SecEng/Security Analyst role.
I went above my bosses head because they did not remedy the issue, and weren't going to.. The SVP guy that I did contact told me that would be willing to vouch for me that I did find a security vuln etc. He was actually quite receptive. I shouldn't of even had to, or felt like I had to go above my bosses head. There should've been a security email I could've emailed. That was at EA. At Amazon I emailed the VP in charge of the anti-fraud system since it might've taken longer for the blue team to send it to the right folks. But yeah, I do agree with you slighty on that.
When responding to a comment that asserts your writing is not strong you'd want to read, re-read, and re-re-read your reply to ensure it is well written. You seem to have not done that, which lends credence to the parent's comment.
My take is you seem to have an inflated sense of your abilities. I've interviewed people who share this trait and it's a turn off unless they have a portfolio of work to back it up.
Perhaps try taking a more humble approach. Ask lots of questions as to what/where they need help. If they align with your experience then share concrete examples of how you've helped others in those same situations. If you haven't, make note of the challenges and see if you can identify patterns across interviews. This would provide hints as to what skill-building you could focus on in the interim.
Good point, but snakedoctor did set this in motion by asking for candid feedback. Ostensibly, he wants to receive and integrate feedback. Seems like the sort of thing a smart kid would aim for. Part of me feels like in a decade people will reference this thread in the same way we reference the shellacking of Dropbox back in the day. It takes a cosmic-sized ego to ask HN to give you advice about why no company will accept that your cosmic-sized ego is justified. But what if the kid is right in his self-evaluation, but has enough self-awareness to critically question his self-evaluation and ask others to do the same? That’s kind of a powerful combination.
Or maybe he just kills himself because he's close to being homeless already and a few hundred assholes just told him that he's a hopeless, narcissistic, uneducated "creep"?
Snakedoctor, I think this whole thread says a lot more about Hacker News and its penchant for armchair psychology and condescension than it does about you and your future prospects.
There's a few helpful posts here... take what you can and go out and seize the day! I am routing for you.
It’s actually kind of impressive to me that so many people want to try and help though. Even if their judgment and advice is wrong (which is likely due to the fact that we really know nothing about this guy), it still gives me a little bit of hope in humanity that people care about some random stranger they’ve never met. Most responses seem genuine rather than self-serving,
Thank you! My point exactly. This is ugly as hell. So many brilliant developers and tech minds congregating to judge someone going through a sad time in their life based on an emotional post to some web forum.
Calm down, I know plenty of talented developers at FAANGxyz companies who are less articulate and have weaker writing skills compared to OP (at least in the post you're replying to, I do agree the original post was a bit off, but clearly it was written in some type of emotional state.. you know with his calling himself unhirable and all.)
It seems that a lot of people replying here never understood the phrase "don't just a book by its cover". So many people are opining about OPs character in definite, and it's just unpleasant to witness. Sure, the whole calling VPs directly thing is a bad idea, and definitely inappropriate, but I can understand someone feeling like they're doing the right thing to advocate for an issue they see to be impactful. I wish I could CC this to all the people postulating OPs universal lack of empathy. I agree that he could benefit from therapy, because honestly we all can benefit from therapy; but all the posts implying he needs to be medicated or psychoanalyzed are reprehensible. I see someone who is upset with where they are, so they wrote a post conveying that in a slightly conceited way, yet so many talented minds in the field of tech are coming to this post to say that he has delusions of grandeur.
He is the book, and this post along with the comments he's making are the cover. You can give advice on what's presented without insulting his character.
Gentle tip: writing "shouldn't of" instead "shouldn't have" is one of those critical writing misteaks one should never make when communicating with educated people. Some others worth special effort to do correctly:
1. their there they're
2. its it's
3. your you're
A couple other writing tips:
1. don't terminate sentences with .. or ...
2. "bosses" is plural, I think you meant "boss's" for the possessive
I know it sounds elitist, and it is, but with these kinds of mistakes their going to relegate you to the "not one of us" bin when looking for a well paying job.
It's well worth the effort to purge them from you're writing.
For me personally, this is the #1 bugbear of writing mistakes. I'm willing to tolerate most of the other failures (especially when they're exceptionally rare), especially because several of them can crop up when you decide to change the sentence between initial mental conception and committing to paper or keyboard.
> I know it sounds elitist, and it is, but with these kinds of mistakes their going to relegate you to the "not one of us" bin when looking for a well paying job.
It's not so much the "not one of us" bin as it is a sense of "you clearly can't put in the effort, so why should we?" It's for similar reasons that you are advised to dress up for interviews.
Not sure where you got the question marks from, but he's talking about ellipses (two or three periods in a row, like '...'). It's actually a stylistic choice and there's nothing inherently wrong with using it, but it is generally considered unprofessional and overuse is extremely annoying for readers.
I misunderstood what the GGP was referring to. As far as I know, ending a sentence with ellipses is considered improper English except for some special cases.
It's interesting how focused you are on proving yourself right (I'll send you a college email etc).
And that seems to be the case with going over your bosses head ("I went above my bosses head because they did not remedy the issue, and weren't going to.")
Being right is great! But having a job is also great. Perhaps focus less on proving yourself right, and more on getting along with people?
Edit: reading further in the thread it sounds like you went over your bosses head 2 weeks into a job? That's really not a great idea.
It's a really tough lesson to learn but this is absolutely true: It is not enough to be right, you must also have credibility. You usually have to accept other people being wrong about things you're right about in order to build credibility.
> You usually have to accept other people being wrong about things you're right about in order to build credibility.
I don’t think this is the correct way to look at it. Rather than accepting other people being wrong, you should be very open to the possibility that it’s you who is wrong. Always doubt your own assumptions, and be willing to change your stance when new information comes to light.
I think my quote would be better if it said "often" or "sometimes" instead of "usually". But no, I disagree with your point here, I mean, that's true too, but it's not what I was talking about. I'm saying that in order to build up a lot of credibility, you have to be right, tell people the right thing, but actually not fight them when they disagree and go a different way. If you were actually right and they were actually wrong, they will know and remember and trust you more in the future. Doing variations of this for a long time in view of a lot of people is one of the places credibility comes from. But you actually do need to pick fewer battles and let more wrong decisions go, even when you are actually right. That's part of the lesson that has to be learned when you don't have the power. It isn't enough to be right, you have to be trusted by the people who make decisions, and for that you have to build credibility.
I can only speak to infosec roles. If that's the route you want to go I think you'll be fine once your experience and skills catch up with your demeanor and confidence. It sounds like you can be a bit of an asshole and create messes for your management, which is morally ambivalent but can interfere with your ability to collect income.
I'd recommend aiming a little lower and a little smaller in the jobs you're applying for. Maybe try entry level spot at a regional bank/hospital/edu and in the interim working on skilling up in more tangible ways (e.g. bug bounties, GitHub projects and it never hurts to pick up a specialty). You have no degree so think of this as a 2-3 year plan to substitute it with experience before going for what you're after.
Good luck dude. You've got some very valuable raw materials, they just need refined a bit and you'll be a beast!
You seem driven and interested which is good. Keep contributing to open source and you'll probably land something. I still think you need to rethink your strategy though.
Re: going over your bosses head: Where is your sense of self preservation? Also, why do you think nobody else will do their job?
Is the fraud system YOUR problem? Then do your due diligence, mark it as someone elses problem, and let it ride.
You gotta suck up to your boss a bit. Going over their head is provoking them!
> Not to be argumentative. But yes, I did attend college.
Your claim may be technically correct. I am willing to believe you did attend a college for some period of time. However, it is nonresponsive. GP was claiming that your writing does not reflect the skills in writing that you are expected to develop as a college attendee. This is understandable; dropping out during/after freshmen year does not give your writing time to progress.
I care about your education because of what you learned, not because your acceptance is an excellent proxy for your SAT scores. (This is the same reason that your short stint as an IBM developer means less than you seem to believe it does.)
It's not the argumentative nature of your post that would be a red flag to me, it is the complete misunderstanding of the issue being raised.
Having some code on Github is helpful when looking for a job.
I see the problem. Most entry level programming jobs today either require a college degree, or they're for very low level web programming. Now, if you're competent at making basic web sites and the front end or back end of a business application, that's a saleable skill. Although one that several million other people already have. Also realize that about half the job is figuring out what the customer (your boss, probably) really wants.
If you hung around a research environment, and you know a little programming, did some soldering, and know which end of a capacitor is positive, but didn't go to college, that's not really a saleable skill set any more. In 1980 it sometimes was.
The problem now is that you likely can't use either of those managers that you went over the heads of as references for future jobs (they may not say nice things).
Not trying to argue either. Contributing to an open-source project is a very different kind of activity from being a member of a team at a company. Programming is only half the job.
Hi Snakedoctor. I've been quite fascinated by this thread. I have a small piece of feedback for you, as someone who's interviewed about 200-300 engineers over my career I've talked to a lot of people and feel like I have at least something of value to add.
I hope you're not offering these sorts of hyperbolic "proofs" of your competency to your interviewers, like you've done here. I've seen a few comments from you like this. Anyone who feels the need to go that far out of their way to prove how smart they are... probably aren't as smart as they think they are. It also does come off as narcissistic.
I get that you have accomplished some cool things in your career so far, but you have to let people evaluate those accomplishments for themselves. They may be very impressive to you, but might not make the slightest difference in the context of the role you're applying for. If people ask about them, be ready to tell. If they don't ask, don't go out of your way to point them out, they're not pertinent to the role. They're on your CV, that's enough.
You do a lot of pointing these accomplishments out (I worked for IBM / I contribute to GNU / I went to college / I got this and that job), but... here you are. Unemployed. Which only leaves two possible explanations; You're either not being forthcoming about your accomplishments (exaggerating them or simply lying), or there's something else, something very negative that means that despite your achievements, you still can't hold a job.
So, you have to be brutally honest with yourself and ask yourself; What is that thing? Only you can answer that question.
Finally, I want to give you a reality check on those accomplishments. They might not be as large as you think. Big, noteworthy accomplishments take years to complete. Completing a masters degree, getting a PhD, working up to a senior position in a company, learning a language, raising a child, building a house. It sounds like most of your achievements did not require the investment of time, but rather are trophies to commemorate your greatness. Companies want people who persevere, and get stuff done, and stick with it. The type of accomplishments you've mentioned show none of that, and your career progression shows the complete opposite.
I hope you make something constructive out of my comments, and use them to improve your approach to interview. In short, I'd recommend a more humble approach, apply for a role suitable to your level, don't try to outsmart the interviewer, or your co-workers when you get hired, and fulfill the job you've been assigned, not the one you wish you had. So no level-jumping over your bosses to make smart comments; that won't help you... I speak from experience, and it took me a long time to understand that a good employee is just someone who makes their managers life easier, by completing their tasks and making sure stuff gets done.
Out of curiosity, how would you view a younger candidate (myself) who dropped out of a similar T40 school junior year with a boatload of personal projects / companies under his belt?
I've had some success, and reached quite a few people, but I'm realizing I may need to settle down at a company sometime soon. I don't want to look unhirable (like OP, in my opinion) but just someone whose genuinely burned out of really trying to make a startup work, and is now ready to settle down in a junior position, and has the ability to do so. Thanks!
It's tough to read too much into this single paragraph. I think the key is why you dropped out of school. You need to have a narrative.
1. "I had some promising personal projects, so I quit during my 3rd year of school to launch one of them. I did {X,Y,Z} but ultimately couldn't turn the corner to profitability so I shut down / failed spectacularly. Now it's time to get my feet under me and learn proper engineering for a few years before I try again." --> This is a good story, but needs to be backed up by data regarding your startup failure.
OR
2. "I was tired of school and quit. I had a bunch of personal projects going and hoped to start one of them into a company but none of them really went anywhere." --> This is a bad story. If this is your situation, you may need to suck it up and go back to school to finish your degree. Otherwise you'll need to be incredibly honest with the interviewer about why dropping out was a bad decision.
OR
3. "I had to drop out of school for <personal reasons>. I've done a bunch of personal projects, so I have the passion and basic technical competence to succeed. I'd like to eventually finish my degree someday." (<--Note: doesn't matter if this is really true) "My focus now is to really engage somewhere for a few years to prove my worth and learn from other smart people." --> Another good story. Shows humility.
Your biggest risk here will be overplaying your past projects. From a Hiring Manager perspective they're interesting technical toys like a university project, but since they didn't go anywhere they don't mean that much. Not fair, but true. Also: stay FAR AWAY from the word "burnout", because this telegraphs "I have issues and won't be able to do my job."
Communicating that you made a mistake and now want to learn in a better environment for a few years helps de-risk you to the hiring manager and shows good self-awareness.
Ah thanks for the reply, and yeah that makes sense. I don't believe it was a mistake as of now, but let me tell my story a bit better:
I got funded by Tyler Cowen / Peter Thiel @ EV and some angels for my first real company (can't link here), and while it wasn't required, I was making quite a bit of money so I left school. (I had a 3.98 my first 2 years in dual Comp Sci / Physics before, so I left with a 3.35 GPA after tanking junior year due to the company)
The unit metrics didn't end up working out, so i've been working on various products since with ~10k users on my previous one. (On my profile, if you care) It's a social app without huge growth though, so i'm not optimistic.
I have one more company i'm building with a friend now in a regulated space before I start recruiting. If this doesn't work out, I need to focus my energy on recruiting for a space i'm passionate about. I've built and launched over 20 websites and IOS / Android apps, and i'm the fastest React / React Native developer I know.
Would that sound batshit insane to recruiters, or someone perhaps worth picking up? I've also done a SE internship at a F400, tutored Engineering Physics, and done some freelancing w/ a 5.00 rating on Upwork if that matters. Thanks.
Ok cool. With this write-up, you de-risked one area and added risk in a second area.
GOOD: High GPA, got funded, ambitious, quit school for valid and rational reasons. I'm excited to hire you.
BAD: Startup didn't work, I worked on some other ones, trying one more time before I get a normal job. Now I'm concerned that (a) you think you're hot shiz and won't accept an entry-level dev role and/or won't be willing to put the effort into that role, or (b) you think you're mid-level but can't pass the hiring bar due to team (not technical) deficiencies, or (c) you'll be awesome but bounce out to a new adventure in ~9 months.
I don't know you, and it's quite possible that you're brilliant with a steep growth curve and huge upside potential. And it's possible (maybe even likely!) that you'll be unhappy in any job and just need to keep pursuing your own thing. Awesome. But if you want a "normal job" I recommend shifting your approach slightly:
Remember that a hiring manager wants a person who can (1) do the job, (2) not cause problems, (3) stick around. You've got #1 nailed, #2 is an open question, and #3 is a big risk in my mind. So I'd suggest starting by making a personal choice regarding your next career stage and then actively believing and selling that vision. So if you decide that you want to work for a while, figure out what you want to get out of that time and push that narrative. Example:
"I got funded by... <rest of your credentials here>. I tried a few other ventures but failed to get traction. I've decided that for my next career stage, I need to spend some time working with other more experienced engineers to learn {large scale engineering, team dynamics, product prioritization, leadership, etc etc whatever}." --> With this narrative you're a very attractive candidate. A good manager will know that you're not signing on forever, but will throw challenging projects your way in the hopes that rapid growth will convince you to stick around for 2-3 years.
Note that your history of scrappy risk-taking will probably play better at smaller earlier stage companies.
Just a suggestion, complete your degree even if it takes you years to do so. Consider continuing to take classes. I worked early in my 20s was doing undergrad simultaneously. It became exhausting and also wanted to have a free social life. I started making enough money and didn't feel the degree was actively helping me at the time. I'm glad I took the break I did, I think I needed it. Then I continued after a two years break and competed the degree p/t in the course of the next few years. Interesting CS courses and the slower volume made it for an even greater experience, I could enjoy taking 2 classes a semester while having a social life too. The college diploma may seem like a dead weight as it's not a bid deal as Undergrad education is not what it used to be but it is a clear differentiator in obtaining a job, if you and a potential candidate have similar skills, the one with the degree would get an advantage. Good luck!
Sir, an inquiring mind wants to know: have you ever hired anyone who had more noteworthy accomplishments than yourself? And what have your hires gone on to do? Do they excel in life or in just making their managers life easier?
There's a pretty good behavioral / soft skills interview question hanging out in your post:
"Think of a scenario where you find a security vulnerability [or crasher bug, or whatever], and you don't think it is being taken as seriously as it should be. How would you handle this situaton?"
There are a lot of good ways to approach this, but "escalate it to the SVP" is rarely one of them.
I've tried asking companies for feedback. Some respond, and some don't. I think that most don't due to legal reasons. I did move to Austin when I received a lump sum of money, and hanged with some people IRL. Some would ratify that I'm awkward lol. But there was a lot of good vibes while I was in Austin. Now that I'm back where I grew up I find that I'm more depressed, and surly. State goverment here is more Laissez-faire, and there's a lot of crime.
Reason that I mentioned that I mentioned Bill Landreth was that I think that I'm kinda like him. I got in to programming, RE, VR, soldering etc. when I was very young. Like 8 years old. I knew some folks that Wired articles were written about etc. I hanged out with a Head of Research guy at IBM who told me himself that I know some stuff that he doesn't know, and have told me that I'm smart. Which sounds cringy now that I type this. But I'm not delusional lol. I was the second person at 18 years old to be hired full-time at IBM in a certain program.. The first guy works at Armonk. I can send proof, screenshots of interview emails with DKIM etc. if anyone would like to verify my claims. Trust but verify as former president Reagan liked to quote.
I'm not challenging you on whether or not you're smart. I'm commenting on the fact that you're unable to find employment, which means either you're carrying yourself incorrectly or you're unable to perform the tasks required of an entry-level applicant. You're bringing up this resume, these achievements, which can verify that you're intelligent and capable of critical thinking, so the greatest culprit would be that you're carrying yourself incorrectly, right?
In another post you brought up your longest stint being 2 months, and that you dropped out of college your freshman year. To be blunt, I don't think the achievements you list really count if you didn't actually complete them. There's a lot of "I worked with", "I got accepted to", "I got hired by" in your posts, but pretty much all of those things are followed by quitting almost immediately. When you're competing in a market with college grads and people with lots of previous experience, having gotten accepted to and then dropping out of a good school buys you much?
One of the hardest lessons for young people early in their careers is to stop beginning sentences with “I am going to...” or “I am doing...” and instead start off with a [truthful!] “I did...”
With an abusive childhood, homeschooling, no college, OP has a long road to travel. That all needs to be addressed, and finding a supportive environment will make that much easier. A career is based on achievement, however, beginning with simply doing the work and staying employed.
> One of the hardest lessons for young people early in their careers is to stop beginning sentences with “I am going to...” or “I am doing...” and instead start off with a [truthful!] “I did...”
It's tough all around I think. It seems like OP might've observed signaling in the past that suggested that "appearing to be a good candidate" and "being a good candidate" are identical, and in actuality are usually not. It's tough because of nepotism, sometimes appearing to be a good candidate is good enough, but for most people you actually have to be at least close to as good a candidate as you appear to be. Meaning, if you include that you went to X university, you actually have to have worked through a substantial amount of that university's curriculum. Same with any internship/program/whatever - there's almost no value in having just been invited to attend.
I have a feeling that many jobs don't really require a lot of intelligent work(?), and it's really hard to get used to that.
I definitely quit my first job because of that. My second job was better, but there wasn't all that much to learn, so I quit relatively soon. Now I'm on my third job, and there definitely hasn't been a lot of intellectual stimulation these days. Last time for something (that I was actually assigned and didn't just decide to do) was maybe late last year? The job itself pays well though and has some other perks.
I doubt there are many jobs that are interesting 100% of time. Better try to accept that.
Also most of my recommendations were rejected on my first job (large company), but most or even all were incorporated at my second job (startup).
@OP Did you mostly apply at well-known companies? Maybe go for a startup instead. Maybe you'll even be able to start a new department and not run out of stuff to do to keep yourself interested.
>>> which means either you're carrying yourself incorrectly or you're unable to perform the tasks required of an entry-level applicant.
That's reading too far IMO. I see no mention of a degree at a reputable college. I see experience in support/QA, that has no relevance to the work of a developer (and it didn't go well apparently).
I don't expect that sort of profile to be invited to job interviews. The job market is brutal.
Sorry, I should've rephrased to say "you're being assessed as carrying yourself incorrectly or being unable to perform..."
Meaning, if they're making it to an interview, they might be failing at a personality/conversational portion, and if they're not, it's probably because their resume/achievements do not get them to the next interview phase.
Another way around this is to not apply for the job. Find the hiring manager and ask them for advice/feedback on your experience/resume, that you value feedback more than consideration for any role. In YC we always reminded ourselves that if you ask for money, you get advice. Ask for advice, and you get money. I think this applies here. Get the feedback via email or writing so you can read it more than once or even share it with other people and have them help you interpret it for maximum growth. Ask people who you admire for advice and to look at your resume, experience, application, and invite them to be honest. And if you don’t have friends you admire (because as they say we’re the average of the 5 people with whom we spend the most time), expand your circle, finding ways to give to others with no expectation of anything in return.
You’ve started a great dialog with yourself. Congrats, and keep it going.
> I knew some folks that Wired articles were written about etc.
This is a red flag right here. You put this in a list of evidence you’re capable and not delusional? You were near semi-notable people.
A lot of your accomplishments read that way. You were near something cool. You dropped out of a good school. You got a (self described as) low paying job at 18 at IBM. Someone really accomplished there complimented you once. You knew people who had things written about them. You were in a program someone who works at armonk was in. Someone else fixed something quickly after you flagged it. None of this is about you, it’s all about other people.
The very fact that these are what you’re listing as positives (or at least as things relevant to you) is a red flag. Do you have any “I accomplished/completed...” accomplishments? You say you’ve been doing VR since you were 8, have you finished anything worth mentioning in all that time?
I agree with another commenter that your ego and expectations could be a problem. If you got one of the jobs you quit before, would you still quit it?
> Reason that I mentioned that I mentioned Bill Landreth was that I think that I'm kinda like him.
Bill Landreth was homeless in Santa Monica in 2016[1]. Plenty of smart people have ended up the same way.
I think you might be making the mistake of thinking that being smart matters. It doesn't matter very much - if the outcome is "success" (whatever that means) then generally speaking having people like you is a better predictor than being smart.
Do people like you? If not then fix that. Read "How to win friends and influence people" and follow the advice.
I would not listen to any advice on HN. I have a pretty solid hiring strategy, but it got downvoted to hell because HN skews to people without much real world experience. They can only think of tech products to sell to other tech companies. (I'm a CTO, and I've raised seed money for two different products. Our market is small -- under 200MM ARR -- but our nearest competitor starts at $30k per year and their product is terrible).
Focus on smaller companies that need help solving actual business problems with automation. Offer to do a project for $20 an hour. Get a job doing straight up IT stuff until you earn their trust, and then show them what you can do software wise. There is a lot of room for competent IT people, but you need to be way more realistic about who is going to hire you.
Honestly, I don't know why anyone wants to work for Google anyways. I took a developer course from one of their former employees, and it was a fucking joke. His ego trip was so ridiculous he said the words "no good Javascript developer uses four space indentions. Have you ever seen one??" And I was thinking, yes, in the library you had us review last week.
Lots of imposters and jackasses out there. Do honest work for smaller companies. It can lead to a lot more opportunity.
> I would not listen to any advice on HN. I have a pretty solid hiring strategy, but it got downvoted to hell because HN skews to people without much real world experience. They can only think of tech products to sell to other tech companies.
< Proceeds to give advice on HN >
This part doesn't really seem worthwhile to post.
> Focus on smaller companies that need help solving actual business problems with automation. Offer to do a project for $20 an hour. Get a job doing straight up IT stuff until you earn their trust, and then show them what you can do software wise. There is a lot of room for competent IT people, but you need to be way more realistic about who is going to hire you.
> This part doesn't really seem worthwhile to post.
I restrict my social media time to a couple of hours a week. If you want to be successful, hustle on LinkedIn. HackerNews is a procrastination hole for people who want to talk about developing software instead of actually doing it.
When is the last time someone shared obvious misinformation about covid on LinkedIn? Or women and POC being harassed via DMs? Or people vomiting influencer spam?
LinkedIn is the only social media site with the possibility of return on time investment, which all suffer from the problems you mention. So why pick the one that can't possibly get you paid?
Also, I'm still curious on how many recruiters have contacted you through Facebook and viewed your resume, as compared to LinkedIn.
> LinkedIn is the only social media site with the possibility of return on time investment, which all suffer from the problems you mention. So why pick the one that can't possibly get you paid?
Do you think influencers go on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram because they aren't getting paid? They just like it?
> Also, I'm still curious on how many recruiters have contacted you through Facebook and viewed your resume, as compared to LinkedIn.
To compare, the answer is 0 to both. I haven't been on Facebook since probably 2013, and I only had a LI at all because we were required to make one in college, which I logged into for the second time ever to deactivate also probably around 2013.
I assumed we were talking about software development, not influencing. Why are you so interested in chiming in on products you haven't used in 8 years?
> I assumed we were talking about software development, not influencing.
I am, which is why I totally ignore LinkedIn :)
> Why are you so interested in chiming in on products you haven't used in 8 years?
I didn't realize I wasn't allowed to post verifiable information about products unless I also participated.
Your comments seem to be increasingly condescending and short. You're welcome to take that behavior to LI, but I will not continue participating in this discussion. Have a great day.
> Focus on smaller companies that need help solving actual business problems with automation.
Thirding this. Smaller companies are easier to get into and actually more satisfying to work for (YMMV). Another responder also said basically "keep your head down and learn for the first year" which is great advice too.
PS: Never sound desperate. If you have the skills, confidently and honestly explain them to anyone who will listen. Tell them you'll work for cheap to prove yourself. You should have a job in no time.
> Honestly, I don't know why anyone wants to work for Google anyways.
I can tell you why - www.levels.fyi
Google is quite literally one of the most well-known and powerful tech companies in the world - I assume it's not that hard to think people who work in tech would want to associate with an organization int hat position.
---
I don't understand your basis of judging the skills of their engineers either. You had one data point of taking a course from a former engineer - not working together with, not a current Googler. Google employs thousands of Software Engineers and represent a large part of the Internet.
The former Googler used to be a Product Manager and I thought I would get some valuable insights. For as high up as he made it, I have no interest in learning how Google operates after seeing his interactions with others.
Through hard work and some dumb luck, I've also interacted with other Fortune 10/50 corporations at the VP level. I wasn't impressed with them either. So it's not just an anti-Google thing.
If you know how to program you should go after that. There is a world wide shortage of programmers. It is also a great stepping stone if you want to move to something else.
If you can't get hired at a place there is a gig economy of sorts with lots of sites where you can bid yourself on projects. Start with small easy stuff and use those projects to build a portfolio.
I about a year that portfolio should be enough to get you in the door (for entry level developer roles) of most companies even if you have never worked as a programmer yet.
Getting back on the ladder is hard if you fell off.
For applications and interviews for the people hiring it is all about perception and reducing risk. When hiring managers/assistants go through the piles of applications they throw away any with red flags, or at best put them in the maybe pile. If a lot of non-red flag applications they discard the maybes as well.
Don't have red flags, or at least camouflage them as best you can on the CV, don't lie though.
In the interviews don't raise red flags either. Some of your original post and comments are potential red flags to me. Practice interviews over and over again, and have ready made answers to all awkward possible questions. No excuses though, make them a good thing for some reason.
I suck at the first interview I do every time I go through the finding-a-new-job/contract process. But by the 2nd, perhaps 3rd, I have remembered the fine art of interviewing, and regurgitate the same practised answers over and over again, and mostly get offered the jobs. Practice.
Don't have gaps on your CV. I have gaps on my CV, but you can't really spot them. E.g. I removed mentioning months to just state the calendar years I was at companies. Sometimes there was a 6 months gaps but you can't tell. I also took a long time off to help when the kids were young. On my CV I just list the smaller projects I was working on at the time instead, even if that was just 10 hours a week. It is all about perception for the person skim-reading your CV.
Ps. in an interview don't say "I did move to Austin when I received a lump sum of money, and hanged with some people". Reword that to something career positive. E.g. took a gap year, worked on startup ideas, taking mentoring lessons, or at best don't mention it. I know when you are young it is a normal thing to do, just it looks or sounds terrible in a hiring process. Again don't have gaps.
Also never again mention that other people say you are smart, know some smart people etc. It is irrelevant, and mostly off putting. Nice for your own self-esteem but not for anyone else. Instead show examples of things you delivered.
Remember you are not the only person applying for that role. Make them want you, as a non-risk option. You also need to seem keen on the company but also make them aware you have other options and are not desperate even if not true...
