This seam like a hopeless endeavor. If circumvention takes little to no effort the people that are already committed to CSAM are going to CSAM.
And everyone else will just hate the burdensome bloat, etc.
If you know your not a theif having your bags checked after paying is an annoyance
> people that are already committed to CSAM are going to CSAM.
Does its prevention even help anyway? The adult porn industry is regularly criticized for seeing people choose it over real sexual relationships. Conceivably the same could hold true for CSAM. As in, if you can't access it, you're going to go get the real thing instead.
The narrative that it prevents child abuse sounds good in theory, but what does the data actually tell us?
Even if it were true (and it might be) that these people would commit less-or-none abuse if they can continue to have access to the csam, the existence of the csam itself necessitates abuse. It seems akin to child sacrifice. Whose kid must be tormented so that other kids can go unmolested?
That said, not sure that draconian, ubiquitous surveillance is the correct (or even effective) solution to the problem.
> the existence of the csam itself necessitates abuse.
Just as the existence of America as we know it necessitates the pillaging and raping of native tribes. But we're not going to watch over your shoulder to make sure you don't participate in American society and send you to jail if you do. As unfortunate as past damage is, life moves on.
Of course, that it incentivizes production of more CSAM is the logic behind the laws, and that is a pretty compelling reason. However, according to the continuous stream of news reports, a tremendous amount of content has already been produced. How much more content would need to be produced? If the adult porn industry stopped producing new content, nobody would ever really notice. Algorithms do incentivize production of more and more adult porn even as 90% of will never been seen by anyone, for sure, but the law could still take a harder stance on those algorithms if that is the better solution.
> Just as the existence of America as we know it necessitates the pillaging and raping of native tribes. But we're not going to watch over your shoulder to make sure you don't participate in American society and send you to jail if you do. As unfortunate as past damage is, life moves on.
There is a significant difference in that you can choose not to consume CSAM. Most Americans don't get to choose not to participate in American society.
> Algorithms do incentivize production of more and more adult porn even as 90% of will never been seen by anyone, for sure, but the law could still take a harder stance on those algorithms if that is the better solution.
I would argue that the better solution is to keep the CSAM laws we have—maybe make them harsher, even—and keep letting adults make consensual porn with other adults if they so desire.
> Most Americans don't get to choose not to participate in American society.
Most Americans don't participate in American society, other than maybe voting, and even then a significant number of them still don't.
> I would argue that the better solution is to keep the CSAM laws we have—maybe make them harsher, even
And I would be trillionaire, but I guess won't bother... The original comment asked for that argument. If you don't want to provide, I get it. You are under no obligation to do so. But what is the point of saying you would do it without actually doing it? If you don't want to provide why make up a fake story when you can just as easily be honest about it or say nothing at all?
> Most Americans don't participate in American society, other than maybe voting, and even then a significant number of them still don't.
Paying taxes doesn't count as participating in "American society"? The same taxes that, say, have funded America's controversial military operations in the past?
> And I would be trillionaire, but I guess won't bother... The original comment asked for that argument. If you don't want to provide, I get it. You are under no obligation to do so. But what is the point of saying you would do it without actually doing it? If you don't want to provide why make up a fake story when you can just as easily be honest about it or say nothing at all?
I'm happy enough with maintaining the status quo. I'm not the one trying to demolish Chesterton's Fence here.
> Paying taxes doesn't count as participating in "American society"?
In the same way a child participates in CSAM production, sure. You haven't made yourself clear, but are you struggling to suggest that the children featured in CSAM should also be prosecuted? Is that the harsher law argument you keep telling us about? I mean, I suppose you are right that if they weren't involved it wouldn't be able to be created. You may not have completely thought that through, though.
> I'm happy enough with maintaining the status quo.
And you are welcome to your arbitrary feelings. But we are talking about your supposed argument.
> as we know it necessitates the pillaging and raping of native tribes
Believe me, any historian will tell you, that tribes pillaging and raping other tribes was completely common before the European settlement. While this does not justify the European settlement by itself, we were the winners who beat the previous winners. Our atrocities are just better documented.
> The data tells us that many child abusers are caught with CSAM as well
How much CSAM? A PornHub's worth of content, or a couple of pictures? The data suggests that in the adult porn world, people aren't satisfied by a single Playboy magazine. Which, too, is the logic behind CSAM laws — that the insatiable search for more content incentives production of more content. But at some point there will be more content that can be consumed, and given how often CSAM producers are caught (not even counting those who never are) we've no doubt far exceeded that threshold. And with the way AI is going...
> But at some point there will be more content that can be consumed, and given how often CSAM producers are caught (not even counting those who never are) we've no doubt far exceeded that threshold
No, we haven't "no doubt far exceeded that threshold". Some CSAM producers getting caught does not make it so. I could say it's unlikely that CSAM production even approaches 1% of the magnitude of adult pornography production—but I too would be pulling numbers out of my ass. Without hard data on this, all we have is meaningless assumptions—and I'm not sure this sort of data is available to anyone.
> No, we haven't "no doubt far exceeded that threshold". Some CSAM producers getting caught does not make it so.
Okay. Exactly how much CSAM data has been produced over the years? And what is the threshold where there is enough?
> Logical fallacies apply only to arguments.
Logical fallacies are most commonly associated with arguments, but are not limited to them. However, "Take your CSAM apologia somewhere else.", as poorly thought out as it is, would be considered an argument if you stay within the bounds of how the term is normally used, of course, so what you say here doesn't even hold anyway.
The anecdotal evidence is that most child abusers started with CSAM and continued escalation from there; not that they would have been abusers except for CSAM.
While it has never been proven to be a casual link, Ted Bundy, Brian Mitchell, Mark Bridger, Jeffrey Dahmer, and now Bryan Kohberger all accessed violent pornography before taking their actions. Dahmer stated it was his ritual - consume violent pornography before finding the next victim. Bundy meanwhile stated it was the tipping point for him psychologically, more than any other known factor, even describing it as his "fuel."
However, the anecdotal evidence around the regular adult porn industry is that users go in the opposite direction. The data is abundantly clear that people, especially young people, are having less sex, all while porn consumption has increased substantially. Likewise, causality hasn't been proven, but it is likely the most compelling answer.
It's hard to know because while less sex is occurring; anecdotally (look around on TikTok), people are bringing violent and dangerous behaviors into the bedroom like never before.
Sexual choking has gone from a fringe behavior, into something that a study (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02937-y) found over 50% of young Australians had tried; even though almost anyone with a medical background finds that extremely dangerous. This is a behavior that compounds, with women who went through it four times "safely" having brain damage markers in their blood (https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv/c6zbv_v1). This is also why the UK (not sure if they did it yet) was even talking about banning all depictions, after an independent study said it was popularly perceived as "safe and common" among Gen Z.
The anti-porn lobby has been going crazy with this study since its release.
I guess when you are desperate for any grain of data backing your totally failed "porn is bad" hypothesis (porn has been a click away for hundred of millions going on 30 years now), you'll latch on to anything.
Ironically if you read the study, it's basically "People enjoyed the act and consented to it, but it's bad because not breathing can be fatal and it's also illegal in Australia". It's also a singular study (rather than a long term trend meta-study) with an online survey data collection method, so about as low of a rigor as you can get.
Of course though, it's gone around heavily marketed as "Record levels of boys are watching porn and going around violently choking out young women because of it".
> Likewise, causality hasn't been proven, but it is likely the most compelling answer.
That's a massive stretch—there are many things that have been declining along with the rate at which people have been having sex. Porn is in no way "the most compelling answer". It certainly could be a factor, sure, but by no means the only one.
What are you seeing people finding more compelling? There was that whole "the chemicals are turning frogs gay and now you too" or whatever it was, but that wasn't compelling. Tell that to the average Joe and he will simply wonder what kind of drugs you are on. Tell the average Joe that "increased porn consumption is diminishing partnered sexual activity" and you'll at least get, "Huh. Maybe."
> It certainly could be a factor, sure, but by no means the only one.
Case in point. But it seems you're confusing a compelling explanation with a scientific explanation. Whether or not porn is actually a factor is entirely immaterial. It might have absolutely nothing to do with it. It can still be compelling even if that is the case.
> If circumvention takes little to no effort the people that are already committed to CSAM are going to CSAM.
Meta made 1.8M CSAM reports to authorities in 2024 Q4 alone. An awful lot of these people aren’t taking any steps at all to avoid detection – they are posting it to social media.
You can argue the ethics of this scanning all you want, but if you’re arguing that it won’t be effective then you’re wrong.
You're acting like those 1.8m reports are actually legit. I'd wager it's 99% baby pictures, gore, normal porn and dank memes, in that order and that the other 1% was parties a) already on the radar of law enforcement b) hacked accounts being utilized for that purpose by parties unknown.
If it were of real value they'd be touting arrests, not reports.
Well. It is if you don't have a bomb isn't it? You trade it for your safety but since you don't die in a firey crash if the person 3 streets over is CSAMing its kinda unfair comparison
Well, "porn" has a very loose definition and varies country by country. IMO it's either nudity (but remember free the nipple movement when you try to define nudity) and/or sexual act usually involving penetration.
Anyway, anyone dancing in a thong isn't even soft-core pornography in my book. Still morally wrong tho in this context.
You say that like somehow nature will do better? Eaten alive on the Savannah. Zoo's have become much better over the years.
People work at zoos typically because they love animals. The Danish zoo in particular is an excellent facility.
People just hate the facts of life without knowing they hate the facts of life, because we detatch and delude them from our everyday goings on.
The facts of life are just kind of shit.
It's not fair.
Its brutality indifferent. Thats all.
I think Zoos in developed western countries out perform nature on the basis of 'ethical concerns' any day of the week
We would never condone dropping the elephant man into nature. If you like people you don't do that.
I've been a vegetarian for 12 years and it's not because i love animals, I'm just not into suffering and torture basically I suspecr most are probably assholes, there are lots of things don't like but I don't torture them, and atleast to me it's pretty clear that nature is careless about pretty much everything except your own, wether or not it's intended nature makes tortureeverywhre. It is literelly incapapble of giving a thought let alone care for you. Period.
Big cats are mandate carnivores. What is your solution.?? Atleast at the zoo the Euthanize the animals used for food. What would you prefer. Do you know the survival rate for tiger cubs in the wild. Perhaps you should do some reading. The zoo is comparitivlt a bastion of safety and considerations from people who actually think and care about things, leave it to the savannah. You get nothing and usually less then that. Eaten alive. Die of thirst. Disease. Sexed Fighting. And all the emotional truama that an animal can stomach, loss of loved one, abondment, fear, every kind of illness, congenital, contagious, psychological.. It's not just captivity in a zoo capable of mental truama.
Pick your flavour but one has less nails in it. Enjoy the cats keep them happy. Minimize harm maximise good. Don't make more. That's all there is to do.
Australia is already living in a full-blown surveillance state. Over 330,000 metadata access requests were approved in a single year—no warrant needed. Agencies like Centrelink, the ATO, even local councils can tap into your private data. Police get access to your web browsing history directly from ISPs without judicial oversight. Encryption is being quietly undermined through laws like the TOLA Act, forcing tech companies to help spy or weaken their own systems. The government now mandates that AI search tools filter and flag content, shaping what people can even find online. When the AFP raided the ABC, they had the legal power to copy, alter, or delete files. Add to that Australia’s deep involvement in the global Five Eyes intelligence-sharing network, and it's clear: this isn’t future dystopia, it’s surveillance as a fact of life. NBN monopoly + TR-069 as default hard locked and custom PCB in NBN hardware (even to the point of new PCB runs with all headers and test points even unpopulated removed) it tooks untill the new rev of arriss hardware before they even complied with the GPRD lisenceing. legit!
The thing that Australians don't realize is that like nobody cares that much about Australia. You are on that side of the world, pretty isolated as far as politics go.
Take the minor losses, be glad that conservative party didn't win, and watch the shitstorm in US and Europe from afar.
is it tho because we have been doing porn since forever and porn is not gatekeeperd by SE at all.
seams like long term slow burn to Gov tendrils just like digital ID and how desperate the example came across as to show any real function, contradictory even.
Pivot, what about the children. small steps and right back on the gradient of slippyslope we are
Aims to protect kids online, but it could easily go too far. It covers way more than just search engines—pretty much anything that returns info, including AI tools.
It pushes for heavy content filtering, age checks, and algorithm tweaks to hide certain results. That means more data tracking and less control over what users see. Plus, regulators can order stuff to be removed from search results, which edges into censorship. Sets the stage for broader control, surveillance, and over-moderation. slowburn additions all stack up. digital ID ,NBN monopoly ISP locked DNS servers . TR-069 etc etc. Hidden VOIP credentials. Australia is like the west's testing ground this kind of policy it seams.
the UI is garbage. Talk about unintuitive. Where it's simple it to simple and when it's advanced it's not intuitive and the relvant info is scatterd to the point of disfunction.
trusting anything these days seams naive